freeatlast
New Member
Thank you for the added information.
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Rapture views
- Thread starter Baptist boy
- Start date
Thank you for the added information.
Allan, as I stated in an earlier post, yes, if by a "catch away," then yes. But not all the contemporary baggage.
I was working my way through J. Dwight Pentecost's classic work Things To Come when I abandoned Dispensationalism.
He was engaged in too much hermeneutical gymnastics for me.
Tom Butler
New Member
While the above is true for you it is not so for others. In fact, it was through through the study of scriptures that lead some of my friends from college from a Post-Trib view TO a Pre-Trib view and they will tell you the proof seems to be incontrovertible. And while I agree with where they stand now, I do disagree that it is 'incontrovertible'(otherwise we wouldn't have other views floating around :tongue3: )
My opinion, I find enough truth in the scripture to support a pre-trib view but I also see support for a post-trib view. For me, I stick with what I see scripture declaring as I understand it, if it moves to a post view, so be it. However, the premise or main views between Post-trib (historic Pre-mil) and Pre-trib remain very much the same with the main exception being the timing of the 'rapture' event.
You are, of course, correct. It's not the fact of the rapture, it's the timing. Maybe I'm demanding too much, but it seems to me that one ought to be able to find that clear teaching, just one verse, that says the rapture is pre-trib.
I Thess 4:13-18 doesn't do it. Chapter 5 refers to the "Day of the Lord" which ever dispy I've ever read says is a post-trib event.
Except, of course, the moviemakers who used the reference to a "thief in the night" as a movie title depicting a pre-trib rapture.
I Thess 5:9 "For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." This is cited as a pre-trib rapture text, but it says nothing of the sort. See what I mean?
Then, there's the famous Revelation 4:1, where a voice from heaven told John "Come up hither." Another pre-trib rapture proof text, right? Naw, not clear at all.
TCGreek mentioned reading Pentecost's Things to Come. I read it, and my eyes sorta glazed over.
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Can you find me one clear teaching, just one verse, that says God is 3 persons and yet 1 God?
If you can't, does that mean the truth of it is not spoken of in scripture?
With Pentacost.. mine did to
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actually, IF we use that reasoning, then we should all NOT been reformed in sense of following protestant beliefs, and should remain Catholic, as they were teaching grace + works to save for long time before Age of the reformers!
Also, we believe that Bible teaches 2 seperate stages, just 1 actual Second Coming to earth!
freeatlast
New Member
May I point out that someone no less then RC Sproul does not even believe in a rapture at all.
What exactly does RC Sproul believe?
RC Sproul said this: "We will meet Christ in the air and share visibly in His triumphal reign over all."
Reference: http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/rapture/
I've always wondered how Messiah could be cut off after the 69th week, yet somehow that didn't happen during the 70th week.
That whole chapter concerns the temple and city that would be rebuilt from the ruins of the then present (during Babylonian captivity) city and temple. It begins with the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem and respects the destruction of the same. It makes no mention of another temple. It respects that temple. That's exactly the way Jesus interpreted the vision. In Matthew and Mark He speaks of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, but in Luke He speaks of Jerusalem being compassed with armies and tells His disciples to get out and never return for it would be made desolate. Yet, people continue to teach that this respects the future. Some of Daniel's prophecies deal with our future, this is not one of them.
That whole chapter concerns the temple and city that would be rebuilt from the ruins of the then present (during Babylonian captivity) city and temple. It begins with the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem and respects the destruction of the same. It makes no mention of another temple. It respects that temple. That's exactly the way Jesus interpreted the vision. In Matthew and Mark He speaks of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, but in Luke He speaks of Jerusalem being compassed with armies and tells His disciples to get out and never return for it would be made desolate. Yet, people continue to teach that this respects the future. Some of Daniel's prophecies deal with our future, this is not one of them.
Just shows us that we ALL see through a glass dimly!
he gets A for Sotierology, but fails to give due to eschatology!
...and that because your dispy views, which are defective at the very roots, are not supported by him, right?
I say the man is to be commended for breaking away from popular Baptist error, and having the intestinal fortitude to proclaim the truth; it surely doesn't win him any popularity from 'the many'.
:thumbs::applause::laugh::applause:.........
Baptist boy
New Member
Just did alot of research on prewrath rapture this side by side comparison of verses in Matthew 24 talking about the rapture compared to verses in Rev 6 and 7.
Matthew 24:29-31
King James Version (KJV)
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 6:12-17
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 7
1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
(Rev 7:4-8 Tribes of Israel get number 12,000 from each)
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them
Matthew 24:29-31
King James Version (KJV)
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 6:12-17
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 7
1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
(Rev 7:4-8 Tribes of Israel get number 12,000 from each)
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them
...and, what are your conclusions from this research?
Baptist boy
New Member
Well when you read all those verse they seem to be describing the same event happening and the fact the the great multitude which no man can number just appears out of know where and the elder says they are the saved coming out of great tribulation makes it pretty clear that the rapture just happened. So I guess I'm prewrath rapture man until further notice.
thomas15
Well-Known Member
So, I get the impression that you don't really care what R.C. Sproul has to say on the subject? Well you should! Preterist/Presbyterian R.C. Sproul is a very smart individual I'll have you to know, he actually has a PhD! Dr. R.C. Sproul. Did you know you can receive Table Talk Magazine at the low rate delivered once a month to your door? It's jam-packed with articles by R.C Sproul and R.C. Sproul Jr..
I find that even the numerous TT advertisements (literally every other page) for teaching resources by R.C Sproul and R.C. Sproul Jr. are edifying. What a resource! Do what I did and buy a copy of the Reformation Study Bible and receive a free 3 month trial subscription. As a bonus you can order teaching materials; CDs of sermons, books and such by R.C. Sproul and R.C. Sproul Jr..
There was a time when Dr. R.C. Sproul was a covenant A-Mil. I have actually have been in the same room as Dr. Sproul. Numerous times in fact. Anyway, getting back to Dr. R.C. Sproul, he discovered that Jesus returned when the Roman Army destroyed the Jerusalem Temple in AD 70. Amagine 1800-1900 years after Jesus walked with men, PhD's like R.C. Sproul made the discovery that 99.6% of all Bible Prophecy has already been fufilled! You know, if you read like I have the book by R.C. titled The Last Day's According to Jesus you will be so amazed by the writing that you will, you must become a Preterist. Not only that, R.C. Sproul and R.C. Sproul Jr. will like you. Nobody knows the Bible and Bible prophecy like R.C. Sproul! Remember, don't trust yourself to understand the plain common everyday meaning of the words of the Holy writ, let R.C. figure it all out for you! He's done all of the heavy lifting so you don't have to!
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Well when you read in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 'timeline' verses like those below, it becomes pretty clear that something is woefully defective within dispy eschatology:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3
I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12
And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20
Compare with:
(26 And the vision of the evenings and mornings which hath been told is true: but shut thou up the vision; for it belongeth to many days to come. Dan 8
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end. Dan 12)
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So Sproul is a partial Preterist?
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