Ratzinger links to the inquisition

mioque · Apr 25, 2005

Bob
The only time I ever saw the man in person was once in the late 80's.
He does not look like the emperor of 1983's Return of the Jedi.

Matt Black · Apr 25, 2005

But he does look like a vulture!

Yours in Christ

Matt

BobRyan · Apr 25, 2005

Originally posted by mioque:
Bob
The only time I ever saw the man in person was once in the late 80's.
He does not look like the emperor of 1983's Return of the Jedi.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050413/ids_photos_india_wl/ra1770321993.jpg

http://www.eclesiales.org/english/archive/9812-3.htm

And as if those two could possibly fail ---

http://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/034bev02-01-2003.htm

Case closed!

mioque · Apr 25, 2005

You know Bob that 3rd picture...

You are right after all!

Bro. James · Apr 25, 2005

Popes and antipopes/antipopes--

Reading some information in "about" on the www got really confusing. Many of the popes called "Benedict" were perhaps antipopes or even anti-antipopes. Who determines who the real popes are? Is XVI the real pope?

How would one find out for sure? How can God be the author of this confusion?

Interested? Call up "popes called Benedict" on the www and do some browsing.

Selah,

Bro. James

mioque · Apr 25, 2005

James
Truly quite simple. There currently have been 16 popes Benedictus that are considered genuine by the RCC at the moment.
On the other hand there have been only 22 real (according to Rome) popes with the name John. The last one had Johannes XXIII as his name.
Oops...
Apparently somebody miscounted in the middle ages.

BobRyan · Apr 25, 2005

Originally posted by mioque:
You know Bob that 3rd picture...

You are right after all!
Click to expand...

I hear the music in the background

dun dun dun da ta dun dun ta dun -
dun dun dun da ta dun dun ta dun

BobRyan · Apr 25, 2005

Originally posted by Bro. James:
[QB] Popes and antipopes/antipopes--

Reading some information in "about" on the www got really confusing. Many of the popes called "Benedict" were perhaps antipopes or even anti-antipopes. Who determines who the real popes are? Is XVI the real pope?

How would one find out for sure? How can God be the author of this confusion?
Click to expand...

When one Pope assassinates his predicessor then "both" are REAL popes.

But if Two Popes go fighting - the first one does the talking (oops that's the rule for vowels not Popes).

I mean when two Popes go fighting the one who WINS is the "legitimate Pope".

But when THREE Papal lines (and I do mean LINES complete with successors and armies etc) are all in play for many decades THEN you have a REAL problem if you are a Catholic.

Imagine with all three raising armies and going to war - HOW could you possibly know which Catholics to kill so you would go to heaven?

It must have been truly confusing back then.

Good thing the reformation popped up right about the same time to help put a stop to that nonsense!

In Christ,

Bob

Bro. James · Apr 26, 2005

The question is still on the floor: What consitutes a "real pope"?

Corollary: How does one sort through all of this "legalistic" "mambo-jambo"?

Was Benedict V a pope or anti-pope?

What about Benedict X?

God is not the author of confusion.

Selah,

Bro. James

BobRyan · Apr 30, 2005

A reviewer – reviews Chamberlin’s “The Bad Popes”

Pope Stephen VII put the corpse of the previous Pope (Formosus) on trial after he had been dead for eight months. Formosus was dragged from the tomb, dressed again in sacerdotal robes, and given council. Stephen VII condemned him, and the three fingers of benediction on the right hand were hacked off Formosus. The late pope was then dragged through the palace, and hurled into the Tiber by a yelling mob.

Stephen VII himself was later strangled. Following this, within 12 months four popes met their demise as political factions struggled to control the papacy.

The Popes from 926-1046 were from the House of Theophylact. Chamberlin documents the legend of Pope Joan, and discounts it as myth. But like some myths, elements of the fiction have been drawn from historical accounts. The women from the House of Theophylact had a grip on the papacy, as it placed there own nominees in papal power. One paved the way for her lover to take the papacy, Pope John X.

Pope John XII is referred to as a Christian Caligula, with charges that he turned the Lateran into a brothel. He and “his gang violated female pilgrims in the very basilica of St. Peter; …offerings of the humble laid upon the alter were snatched up as casual booty”(p.43). Some bishops who dared to take part in a trial condemning John’s abuses came under the rage of this pope. “One had his tongue torn out, his nose and fingers cut off; another scourged; the hand of a third was hacked off”(p.60). John XII is rumored to have been killed by an angry husband who caught the Holy Father in the act, but Chamberlin is cautious to say that perhaps this was perhaps gossip of the day with no verification.

Pope Benedict IX sold the papacy for 1,500 pounds of gold to Giovanni Gratiano. Rumor has it, he wished to cease being pope to marry. The reason he is said to have sold it, is because Benedict, while willing to cease being Pope, was not willing to give up a luxurious lifestyle.

Perhaps the saddest tale of all is the story of Peter of Morone, who became Pope Celestine. He was a “holy man who hung his cowl upon a sunbeam, whose hours of devotions were marked by the tolling of a supernatural bell”(p.79). He lived in a cave high up on Monte Morone. Chamberlin calls him a “simple good man”(83). Celestine, once Pope, longed to be a recluse monk again. He abdicated, and then Boniface VIII stepped in. Boniface feared the followers that Celestine had, so he decided to have the ex-pope arrested and brought back to Rome. Bonfice eventually did capture him, condemned all that Celestine had done as Pope, and imprisoned him for the remainder of his life.

Bonifice VIII was known for simony and nepotism. Bonifice though, countered these charges by holding that, “a pope could not, by definition, commit simony, for he was the church and the church was he and all that it possessed was at his ordering” (p.94). Also known for “witty” speech, Boniface is recorded as saying something like, “Sexual immorality? Why- there is no more going to bed with women and boys than in rubbing one hand against the other” (p.111). He is also to have said, “”A man has as much hope of survival after death as that roast fowl on the dining table there” (p.111), this remark made on a fast day. Chamberlin implies that perhaps Boniface was kidding, yet those writing his every word made sure to include these statements. Boniface is also known for the bull Unam Sanctum which “made explicit what had been implicit: It is necessary for salvation that all human creatures shall be subject to the Roman Pontiff”(p.119).

John XXII was a banker. “He destroyed the little friars who had arisen with their terrible heresy that Christ and his disciples had been poor men, that the amassing of wealth was contrary to his teaching” (p.131).

Clement VI was “a happy, splendid priest with a vast taste for the table, considerable culture, and an indiscreet love of women” (p.132). He “made no secret of his liking for feminine company” (p.132). One contemporary said of him that, “…when he was an archbishop he did not keep away from women but lived in the manner of young nobles, nor did he as pope try to control himself. Noble ladies had the same access to his chambers as did prelates and among others, the Countess of Turenne was so intimate with him that, in large part, he distributed his favors through her” (p. 133).

Urban VI was known as a man with a bad temper. The cardinals at the time thought of him as a madman. To an adviser who doubted his powers to excommunicate one for the mildest misdemeanor he yelled, “I can do anything, anything!” (p. 143). He was said to have physically attacked the cardinal of Limoges in consistory, whereupon many of the cardinals drifted away from Rome. Eventually, a few of the cardinals began devising a plan to remove him from the papacy. Urban was alerted, and had those cardinals “put to the question,” which involved old cardinal Sangro “hoisted to the ceiling three times by the strappado and each time was dropped heavily to the floor” (p.153). Urban, unable to hear Sangro’s screams, directed the examiners to improve their questioning by torturing the old man more severely.

Pope Alexander VI first mistress bore him four children, and he strove to have those children in power and to also become pope. He was fourty years senior his second mistress.

Pope Leo X offered a profound statement, “How very profitable this fable of Christ has been to us through the ages” (p.223) after an advisor quoted from the gospels.

These are but a few examples from the book. After reading “The Bad Popes,” by Chamberlin -- it was no wonder that the Reformation occurred. One could spend the whole year reading books on Luther’s life or the sixteenth century, and miss the centuries of corruption that provoked the Reformation.
Click to expand...

BobRyan · Apr 30, 2005

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02429b.htm

Pope Benedict X
The bearer of this name was an antipope in the days of Nicholas II, 1056-61.
Click to expand...

BobRyan · Apr 30, 2005

According to Bokenkotters "Concise History of the Catholic Church" the same Cardinals that elect URBAN claim that the "mob" altered the elections and so they elected another Pope - free of the mob. And thus began the great schism pg 166-168.

BEFORE the Schism - when Gregory XI died the Romans feared a French Pope "might" be elected. As Bokenkotter states (pg 166)

"Dismay soon gave way to panic as the sixteen Cardinals assembled on April 7 1378. Some of them were assaulted in the street and warned by the bullies to elect (Urban VI) an Italian... The Cardinals quickly elected an Italian, the archbishop of Bari, Bartholomew Prignano, who was not even of their number. In the meantime, a mob in ugly mood had seized the papal wine cellars and invaded the Vatican; while waiting for Prignano to arrive, the cardinals dressed up one of their colleagues and presented him in papal robes to pacify the crowd.
Whether the cardinals were REALLY overpowered by fear and hence unfree when they elected Prignano - as they later charged - will, it seems, remain forever one of the tantalizing but insoluble questions of rc history...

The SCHISM BEGAN when THE CARDINALS - whose original misgivings were greatly exacerbated by Urban's behavior - decided they had had enough. abandoning Rome, they took refuge at Fondi, and then elaborated an encyclical in which they declared Prignano's election invalid and denounced him has antichrist, demon, apostate, and tyrant...on September 20 1378 they unanimously elected a new pope, Rober of Geneva, who took the name Clement VII.

..BOTH Popes received support from civil governments - splitting Western Christendom into TWO camps. The Holy Roman Emperor, England, the Netherlands, Castille, Hungary, Poland and Portugal stood behind Urban, while France rallied to Clement VII, who returned to Avignon in 1379 and was soon JOINED by Scottland, Luxembourg and Austria...(Itally itself was TOO confused for either side to count on)... Urban proclaimed a crusade against Clement and hired the sanguinary Charles of Durazzo to oust the renegade Queen Joan from Naples. The English invaded France in order to break it's allegiance with Clement.

Both popes found military operations to be expensive, and the papal tax collectors where forced to use ever harsher methods to squeeze every penny out of their constituents...Urban turned more violent and savage. Suspecting his own cardinals of plotting against him, he put them to torture, and five of them died shortly thereafter, probably thrown overboard from the pope's warship..Urban returned to Rome where he died in 1389. His fourteen cardinals immediately elected a successor. Boniface ix...
This rupture of the church's unity was a terrible trial for believing Catholics."

Finally they came across the solution "the RESIGNATION OF BOTH POPES". A solution they would try when opportunity was present.

"Hopes were stirred when the Avignon Pope, Clement VII, died in 1394 and each of the candidates to succeed him swore an oath that if elected he would RESIGN his office. But the one elected Benedict XIII...soon showed that he had NO intention of honoring his pre-election oath"

At this point WAR breaks out between France and the French Pope!! "They even laid seige to his palace, but all in vain...France totally capitulated and returned to his (The French Pope Benedict) obedience"...

Hopes were once again renewed in 1406 with the election of a new Roman Pope, Gregory XII who had sworn to resign IF "his rival at Avignon would do the same...so finally realistic negotiations seemed about to begin; Both Popes agreed to meet to discuss their joint resignations. But then the insincerity of both men surfaced".

At this point a concilar solution was sought whereby a council would meet without approval of either pope to solve the problem. March 25 1409 "..after a brief pause, the POPES were then declared contumacious and schismatical, notorious heretics, guilty of scandalizing the universal Church and therefore deposed. The townspeople reacted with wild joy… a New Pope was elected Alexandar V.
The miracle was premature. By their haste in electing a Pope the cardinals only aggravated the sickness.. The new Pope Alexandar V, did not even manage to reach his see of Rome before dying at Bologna May 3 1410. His successor took the name John XXIII."

Eventually Sigismund of Luxembourg was elected Holy Roman Emperor and called a council that pronounced itself in superiority to all Popes.

"Great indeed now was the humiliation of the papacy in all THREE lines of Papal (lines) clamants."

Click to expand...

<<All three successors to the three Pope system were in effect - deposed. >>

<<At this time they also burned John Huss at the stake!! What a fitting crime.>>

On November 11, 1417 they used a NEW system - The cardinals were joined by six delegates of each RC nation - thirty in all - . That group then selected the next Pope - a complete break from

Ratzinger links to the inquisition

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