RC claims to Idolatry in the Mass

[DHK]

EXODUS 20: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

1Cor.10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

The command is simple, and simply ignored by the Catholic Church. Thou shalt not make any graven image or any likeness thereof (of God or anything that would take the place of God).
Neither shall you bow down to them.
The language is straight forward and clear.
How one can mess it up, transgress it, and then deny it and say that they are not transgressing it is beyond me.

In 1Cor.10:20 Paul points out a very interesting truth. God is spirit; they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). Thus the command in the Ten Commandments not to make any graven images or to bow down before them. The Gentiles (which 99% of the people that post here are), all claim to worship God, and most claim to worship Christ. The ones who pray to Mary and bow down to statues, such as the stations of the cross, and pray before them, Paul teaches that they are praying to demons. Behind every idol (statue) that you pray to, is a demon. That is the teaching of Scripture.

"But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils,"

You offer your prayers before your idols of Mary and other statures, and you offer your prayers to devils (demons). If the Hindu prays to Vishnu, or Ra, or Brahma, or any other of several Hindi gods, he will not say that he is praying to wood and stone. He will not say that he is praying to a devil. He will say that he is praying to his god represented by his statue; just as you say you pray to Mary represented by your statue. Paul teaches that every statue that you kneel before, pray before, is represented by a demon. You are not praying to God; but rather a demon. Those who pray to God do so without statues; for God is spirit; they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Any other way is idolatry.
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

How do you feel about movies that portray Jesus?

Tracts which have drawn pictures of Jesus or the Holy Spirit (portrayed as a dove)?

Etc.?

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
thessalonian,

This is what you said, 'Catholicism is not a smorgasboard religion like your Protestant denominations.'

Hopefully most Protestant denominations do not make going to church a legalistic requirement to prove your salvation. Protestants know that they are saved by Christ, through His grace, and because of our faith in Him. We are not rule oriented; we go to church because of our love for the Lord our God. This is the liberty that we enjoy and the beauty of being a non-Catholic. Protestant ministers, generally speaking, trust the Lord to keep His own sheep; it is our ministry to feed them.

Yes, I know you are not rule oriented. That is why the Anglicans decided that the ban by 2000 years of Christianity on homosexuality was just to confining. The fact of the matter is that you do not understand the Eucharist and grace or you would not make such foolish statments.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

"Christ is our great High Priest and we as Christian believers are all priests unto the Lord God. [Revelation 1:6]"

How is this different from the Old Testament. Christ was always the High Priest (Psalms 110:4
The LORD HAS sworn and will not change His mind,
"You are a priest FOREVER
According to the order of Melchizedek.")

Jesus Christ has always been the High Priest for all eternity.
and the Jews were priests unto the Lord also. Ex 19. Exodus 19:6
and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."

Further, it is not at all contradictiory. Perhaps you think you are somehow contradicting my beliefs?

 

[GraceSaves]

DHK,

The wording IS clear, but not like you assume it is.

Notice that each commandment deals with ONE issue.

No other Gods.
No stealing.
No murdering.
No coveting.
Etc.

But what you are making out to be true is that the commandment is to BOTH not make graven images AND not to worship them. Two in one.

I don't see it that way, nor does it logically follow. Making graven images is only forbidden in the context of worshipping them.

Why? Because God says to not make graven images of "anything in the earth below." Does that mean that an artist who sculpts something has broken this commandment? Does a painter who paints a portrait of George Washington break this commandment? Are photographs breaking this commandment? How about a still life of some flowers?

The only REAL answer is "NO." I'm sure you have some pictures on your walls that contain things "on this earth," which you have represented in some artistic fashion. We have some wooden, carved ducks back at my family's home. That's a "graven image" of something "in the earth below."

Thus, to simply have an image of Mary is not breaking the commandment. To have an image of Jesus on the cross is not breaking this commandment.

Now, you believe that praying to Mary is idolatry. Fine. That means, according to your numbering of the 10 Commandments, we are breaking the first one, having no other gods before God (which we aren't doing, but that's besides the point).

Now, even if we DID worship the saints (which we do not, as that is strictly forbidden, of course), we would not be worshipping the statues/images any more than I worship a 70 year old picture of my family that I treasure. That picture has meaning, and it represents and reminds me of a reality, which is not forbidden. You cannot know people's intentions necessarily by their actions. You would have to talk to the person and hear what they say they were doing, as well as read their hearts, in case they were not telling the whole truth. Thus, when we say we don't worship Mary, you can chose not to believe us, but you cannot know for CERTAIN either. You pass judgements without all the evidence, which you are not entitled to do.

So, to sum it up, to have an image of Mary, the saints, Jesus, etc, is not a violation of the first/second commandment until such images are worshipped as idols. Further, to state that someone is worshipping an idol, unless they admit to such, is to judge their actions without knowing their intentions. Even more, idol worship is forbidden in the Catholic Church in all its forms, as is giving worship that is due to God alone to any thing else, which is all creation.

Thus, DHK, what you wrote is entirely false.

 

[GraceSaves]

You know, this entire post is false from the start. It is titled "RC claims to Idolatry in the Mass."

The "RC" never claimed as such. Leo Trese claimed it, for it is his words, and his words alone, that are used in this "proclaimation." Leo Trese is NOT the "Roman Catholic Church." I assume he is a member of it, but he is not her universal pastor nor her magisterium, so he can claim that pigs fly in his book if he wants to, or that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (one false, one true), but either way, it is not the Catholic Church that is making such claims. It is Leo Trese.

This thread is based on a false assumption, presented as fact. I ask that the name of the thread be changed to represent the truth of the matter.

 

[dumbox1]

Actually, Leo Trese never said it either. Trese's argument was that IF Catholic beliefs regarding the Eucharist were not true, such a situation would exist.

It's similar to saying that IF all Christians are wrong about the Divinity of Jesus Christ, then worshipping him would be idolatry. There's no doubt about it -- if Jesus was "just a guy," worshipping him would be idolatry.

But he's not "just a guy," and we're not wrong, so it's not idolatry.

Only when viewed through the rather fuzzy lens of BobRyan's misconceptions does Trese's statement become problematic, IMHO.

Mark H.

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Mark H.:
It's similar to saying that IF all Christians are wrong about the Divinity of Jesus Christ, then worshipping him would be idolatry. There's no doubt about it -- if Jesus was "just a guy," worshipping him would be idolatry.

But he's not "just a guy," and we're not wrong, so it's not idolatry.

Exactly, Mark! Bob's entire claim is no more than "If X is not true, then X is false."

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

Originally posted by DHK:

How do you feel about movies that portray Jesus?

Tracts which have drawn pictures of Jesus or the Holy Spirit (portrayed as a dove)?

Etc.?

I don't like them. I don't like anything nowadays that tries to portray Jesus Christ. There is no one alive that has ever seen Him. There is no one that knows what He looks like. Most portray as a long haired hippie. I believe it is wrong to have images of Christ whether in movies or in pictures elsewhere--especially the crucifix.
DHK

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by trying2understand:

Originally posted by DHK:

How do you feel about movies that portray Jesus?

Tracts which have drawn pictures of Jesus or the Holy Spirit (portrayed as a dove)?

Etc.?

I don't like them. I don't like anything nowadays that tries to portray Jesus Christ. There is no one alive that has ever seen Him. There is no one that knows what He looks like. Most portray as a long haired hippie. I believe it is wrong to have images of Christ whether in movies or in pictures elsewhere--especially the crucifix.
DHK </font>

Do you ever form an image of Christ in your mind, such as when you pray? Is that wrong also? Are you praying to that image, or to Christ?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:

But what you are making out to be true is that the commandment is to BOTH not make graven images AND not to worship them. Two in one.

I don't see it that way, nor does it logically follow. Making graven images is only forbidden in the context of worshipping them.

Why? Because God says to not make graven images of "anything in the earth below." Does that mean that an artist who sculpts something has broken this commandment? Does a painter who paints a portrait of George Washington break this commandment? Are photographs breaking this commandment? How about a still life of some flowers?

The only REAL answer is "NO." I'm sure you have some pictures on your walls that contain things "on this earth," which you have represented in some artistic fashion. We have some wooden, carved ducks back at my family's home. That's a "graven image" of something "in the earth below."

Thus, to simply have an image of Mary is not breaking the commandment. To have an image of Jesus on the cross is not breaking this commandment.

Now, you believe that praying to Mary is idolatry. Fine. That means, according to your numbering of the 10 Commandments, we are breaking the first one, having no other gods before God (which we aren't doing, but that's besides the point).

To the Catholic the end justifies the means, even if the means is clearly wrong and clearly sinful. You put an obvious dichotomy between prayer. One type of prayer is not prayer at all you say; the other is a form of worship. All prayer is worship. When you bow down in front of that idol of Mary and pray before her you have committed idolatry by virtue of the fact that you have both kneeled in front of her, and prayed in front of her (to her)--an act of worship, adoration. That is what the Ten Commandments was referring to. That is exactly what Catholics do.

Now, even if we DID worship the saints (which we do not, as that is strictly forbidden, of course), we would not be worshipping the statues/images any more than I worship a 70 year old picture of my family that I treasure. That picture has meaning, and it represents and reminds me of a reality, which is not forbidden. You cannot know people's intentions necessarily by their actions.

That is entirely wrong assessment. It is like saying I can't know if the town drunk staggering down the middle of the street is not drunk unless I talk to him. "You shall know them by their fruits," not by their hearts. "The heart is deceitful above all things and desparately wicked, who can know it?" (Jer.17:9).
As the Hindu bows down before the god of Ra, and says he is worshipping his god, Ra, that which the image represents, and not the image itself; so the Catholic does the same thing. He says he bows down in front his image (be it the image of Jesus--a crucifix, or an image of Mary, and worships that which the image represents and not the image itself. You are no better off than a Hindu. Hindus do the same thing. "By their fruits ye shall know them." By the fruit of Catholicism, measured against the Word of God, you commit adultery. We don't measure against your heart (it is deceitful, and desparately wicked), neither do we measure against your intentions--which change constantly. We measure against the Word of God. It is our final authority in all things of faith and practice.

You would have to talk to the person and hear what they say they were doing, as well as read their hearts, in case they were not telling the whole truth. Thus, when we say we don't worship Mary, you can chose not to believe us, but you cannot know for CERTAIN either. You pass judgements without all the evidence, which you are not entitled to do.

I talk to God. That is enough. He speaks to me through His Word. That is enough. His Word tells me you practice idolatry. That enough. The case is closed as far is God's Word is concerned. Your argument is with God, not with me. I am simply the messenger.

So, to sum it up, to have an image of Mary, the saints, Jesus, etc, is not a violation of the first/second commandment until such images are worshipped as idols. Further, to state that someone is worshipping an idol, unless they admit to such, is to judge their actions without knowing their intentions. Even more, idol worship is forbidden in the Catholic Church in all its forms, as is giving worship that is due to God alone to any thing else, which is all creation.

So, to sum it up, to have an image of Mary, the saints, Jesus, etc, is a violation of the first/second commandment for they are worshipped by Catholics.. We judge actions not intentions. Idol worship may be forbidden, but is freely practiced, practiced because of the loophole Catholics have created for themselves in redefining prayer. Prayer is not prayer??

Thus, DHK, what you wrote is entirely false.
Thus, what DHK wrote is absolutely true, but the Catholics refuse to accept it for they would rather continue in their idolatry.

1John 5:21 "My little children keep yourselves from idlols."
DHK

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by MikeS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by trying2understand:

Originally posted by DHK:

How do you feel about movies that portray Jesus?

Tracts which have drawn pictures of Jesus or the Holy Spirit (portrayed as a dove)?

Etc.?

I don't like them. I don't like anything nowadays that tries to portray Jesus Christ. There is no one alive that has ever seen Him. There is no one that knows what He looks like. Most portray as a long haired hippie. I believe it is wrong to have images of Christ whether in movies or in pictures elsewhere--especially the crucifix.
DHK </font>

Do you ever form an image of Christ in your mind, such as when you pray? Is that wrong also? Are you praying to that image, or to Christ? </font>[/QUOTE]Good question. And it brings to mind another. When the Apostles were walking about this earth, would it have been idolatry for them to hold in their memory what they remembered Christ looked like, even though that memory may have become faded over time and likely not an accurate representation? Do you think anyone ever asked them "what did he look like?" and they gave a description, to which the person formed a mental image of Jesus, to which they lashed out IDOLATER? No. I think the heart is the problem we must focus on.

 

[thessalonian]

"All prayer is worship"

Webster and MSN ENCARTA don't agree that it is always worship.

transitive senses
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE -- often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea &lt;pray be careful&gt;
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive senses
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MikeS:
Do you ever form an image of Christ in your mind, such as when you pray? Is that wrong also? Are you praying to that image, or to Christ?

I don't pray to mental images. I pray to God. "God is spirit. They that worship Him must worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)
To get a better idea of that ask someone like Abiyah, or closely related to Judaism, how did the Old Testament Jew pray to Jehovah? What mental image (if any) did they have in their minds? Must you have any?
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

'thessalonian,

You said, 'Yes, I know you are not rule oriented. That is why the Anglicans decided that
the ban by 2000 years of Christianity on homosexuality was just to
confining. The fact of the matter is that you do not understand the Eucharist
and grace or you would not make such foolish statments.'

There is a vast difference in magnitude between being a sexual deviant than missing a mass at the Catholic Church. Both the O.T. and the New mark this off as a most serious sin and iniquity called homosexuality. [Romans 1:26-27; II Kings 23:7; Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13]

I do agree with you that attending worship is a vital part of Christian development, [Hebrews 10:25]. Apparently, some priests are calling people to the mass and the Eucharist while in their own personal lives are bowing at the shrine of their own private abominations. Is this what you mean by 'understanding the Eucharist' and 'grace?'

Blame it on the Protestants; it must be something we are putting in the water up in the northeast in the city of Boston.

SOLUTION: Let God be true and every man a liar. The Catholics need to demand of their vicar of Christ to cleave to the Word of God as found in I Timothy 3:2 and give up their tradition that has become a serious stumbling block to the vicar of Christ's clergy. There should be no more same sex relationships countenanced but rather one wife for one bishop. This is a nasty kickback and frustration for Catholics and to their organization and church who wants to promote spirituality in human beings.

They have already assessed my father-in-law and other members of their church, Holy Rosary, for what they are calling church repairs for small parishes and for clergy who have no retirement. His assessment was just shy of $3,000. My in-laws believe that much of these funds will go to defray the church's present litigation in the courts. Personally, I do not have any opinion in this levy matter.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
I don't like them. I don't like anything nowadays that tries to portray Jesus Christ. There is no one alive that has ever seen Him. There is no one that knows what He looks like. Most portray as a long haired hippie. I believe it is wrong to have images of Christ whether in movies or in pictures elsewhere--especially the crucifix.
DHK

But do they violate the commandment concerning graven images?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
I don't like them. I don't like anything nowadays that tries to portray Jesus Christ. There is no one alive that has ever seen Him. There is no one that knows what He looks like. Most portray as a long haired hippie. I believe it is wrong to have images of Christ whether in movies or in pictures elsewhere--especially the crucifix.
DHK

But do they violate the commandment concerning graven images? </font>[/QUOTE]If you believe the deity of Christ, that Christ is God, then yes. That is what those first few commandments are all about.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
"All prayer is worship"

Webster and MSN ENCARTA don't agree that it is always worship.

transitive senses
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE -- often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea &lt;pray be careful&gt;
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive senses
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

You are not using Webster or encarta fairly. You may entreat or implore a person, i.e., request them, for something here on earth.
But used in the supernatural realm it becomes worship. To implore God is obviously worship. To implore Mary is the same thing. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to simply define it as imploring as requesting another earthly person, then you are guilty of necromancy, speaking to the dead. Either way you are wrong and in violation of the Scriptures.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
Good question. And it brings to mind another. When the Apostles were walking about this earth, would it have been idolatry for them to hold in their memory what they remembered Christ looked like, even though that memory may have become faded over time and likely not an accurate representation? Do you think anyone ever asked them "what did he look like?" and they gave a description, to which the person formed a mental image of Jesus, to which they lashed out IDOLATER? No. I think the heart is the problem we must focus on.

What images do you suppose the Apostles focused upon?

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
--We beheld his glory.

2Pet.1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
--"eyewitnesses of his majesty"
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
If you believe the deity of Christ, that Christ is God, then yes. That is what those first few commandments are all about.
DHK

Would a person who watches a movie which portrays the events of the New Testament (ie: Jesus) also be guuilty of violating the commandment?

How about those little Chick tracts with the pictures of Jesus, the Holy Spirit (portrayed as a dove), and the Father (portrayed as a giant lightbulb)?

Is it a violation to print them? buy them??? distribute them??? read them???

It seems to me that most Babptists would have no problem with any of the above. Most Christians for that matter.