RE: Contemporary Christian Music....

[Molly]

Great post,DocCas!!!(from the first page!) I agree.

[ September 09, 2002, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
Alice Cooper is a Christian artist? I thought it was a wild, worldly extra-hard rock band! I had no idea! And I didn't know the others you men-
tioned were Christian groups.

Hey Abiyah

The evolution of Alice is kind of interesting.

"Alice Cooper" started as a "wild, wordly extra-hard rock band", just like you said, led by a young detroit singer named Vince Furnier.

Over time, people came to see Vince as "Alice", the same way some people thought that Ronnie Van Zandt really was "Lynyrd Skynyrd" and Ian Anderson really was "Jethro Tull".

He and the band accepted this, believing that "Alice" would be more popular as a charismatic individual than as a band.

Years later, when the band eventually broke up, Vince Furnier was awarded the rights to the "Alice Cooper" name by the courts.

He has gone by Alice since, even though his legal name is still Vince Furnier.

At some point, Alice's wife (who's name escapes me) became a Christian and encouraged her husband to turn to Jesus to help overcome a battle with alchohol.

At the urging of his wife and next door neighbor (and frequent golf partner), Pat Boone, Alice became a Christian in the early nineties.

He is an artist who is a Christian, but not necessarily a "Christian artist".

He still sings and acts in mainstream cirles but is svery outspoken about his faith in Christ and the lyrics from his "Dragontown Trilogy" ("The Last Temptation of Alice", "Brutal Planet" and "Dragontown") all reflect this.

"The Last Temptation" is an aligorical tale of a young man who goes to a carnival and is offered all sorts of treasuers and pleasures by the carnival barker, who represents the Devil.

I won't spoil the ending for you.

"Brutal Planet" and "Dragontown" goes on to tell the tale of a world that has rejected Christ and, as a result, has become a Hell on Earth.

When the rumours of his being saved first started to surface, I went around the internet to see what I could find out.

I found one fansite in which the guys went to see Alice in concert but left because "he wouldn't stop talking about Jesus".

According to Alice, who has always maintained that "Alice" is only a character, the post-conversion Alice is still the same, but Alice's message is completely different and I would be inclined to agree with him.

Specifically to Smoke Eater, you have mentioned many groups and singers as singing Christian music--singers I would not normaly bother to listen to. I don't like Country music, but that is mainly because I don't like the subject matter and too many I had heard in my early years could not sing on key. Furthermore, the nasal quality was irritating.

But you have sparked my interest. I shall check
out some of these people you have mentioned.

That's great Abiyah. If there's anything I can do to help, let me know. Also, Mr Curtis has excellent taste in that kind of music and I'm sure he would be glad to help you, too.

Mike

[ September 09, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Abiyah]

Thank you, Smoke Eater! 8o)

Now, I have been totally disengaged from popular
music since the revelation of Keith Green, who
took his first place upon my 8-track player and
has morphed through cassettes to CDs. He is
yet to be dethroned in my home. So I do not
know anything musical, other than Christian
music, since Green's debut. Hence, my question:

Is the person known as Alice Cooper the guy on
the TV ad, wearing a garishly-painted black and
white face, who gives an excellent spoken mes-
sage on family values, with the last scene being
him jumping rope. Ttwo little children are turn-
ing the rope, and he jumps to the seesaw rhyme
which begins, "My name is Alice; I live in a palace . . . ."

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
Thank you, Smoke Eater! 8o)

Is the person known as Alice Cooper the guy on
the TV ad, wearing a garishly-painted black and
white face, who gives an excellent spoken mes-
sage on family values, with the last scene being
him jumping rope. Ttwo little children are turn-
ing the rope, and he jumps to the seesaw rhyme
which begins, "My name is Alice; I live in a palace . . . ."

That's the guy.

He talks about the commercial and, oddly enough, family values in an interview on Heaven's Metal magazine's website (it's still in their archives but I can't remember the web adress).

He's got a great quote in the interview something to the effect of "I may be Bela Lugosi on stage but what people don't understand is that I'm really Ward Cleaver at home".

The makeup is one of the character's trademarks although he looks strange enough wothout it.

I never will forget when Mad magazine ran a picture of what Alice Cooper would look like bald and it was the freakiest thing I'd ever seen.

There's an "Alice" thread around here in the music forum, somewhere, I think.

 

[Abiyah]

Okay. I believe I may have also seen him, sans
makeup, with his family in one of those shows
which focuses upon celebrity homes. I don't
like those shows, so I only saw a few minutes
of it, with his son a the comuter and also the
family at the table for a meal. Something was
mentioned about what a straight, norrmal father
he is. Yes, he was interesting, even without the
makeup!

Well, I am going to have to at least listen to
some of his music. 8o) I think I am guaranteed
it will be out of my usual genres!

 

[M Wickens]

A few random thoughts on this topic...

Can anyone show me the Biblical example for using music to reach the lost? I'll not argue that it can/should be used but as for making evangelism the main purpose of music extreme caution should be used.

Are the lost more apt to follow the flesh or Christ? Which type of music do the lost generally listen? That which appeals to the flesh or the spirit? Should we take their music, put God's Word's to it and expect it to be blessed. Music can be used for evangelism but it is dangerous ground.

Rock music cannot be Christian. Consider the relation rock has to music; where did the term "rock and roll" come from?

Yes, in times past people were steeped in tradition and resisted change but this is not the same. The issue now is that the music itself is proven to be harmful. The Communist regime would not allow Rock music as they saw that it encouraged rebellion. And it was the music not the words that encouraged rebellion. That is why Russians under that regime listened to English rock, not for the lyrics but the music itself.

Music does not have to be liked by us, it has to 1. Glorify God, 2. Instruct believers, 3. Edify believers and then at a stretch be used for evangelism.

Why is the music usually changed? Because, for example, little Jimmy is backslidden and not attending church. What is the answer? Let's take his music that in a backslidden state he enjoys and put our words to it! Does this seem like flawed logic to anyone else?

 

[Aaron]

Hello, M Wickens. Welcome to the forum! You've opened a can of worms with that post!

Good insights.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by M Wickens:
A few random thoughts on this topic...

[qb]

Can anyone show me the Biblical example for using music to reach the lost? I'll not argue that it can/should be used but as for making evangelism the main purpose of music extreme caution should be used.

There's not one but it's not prohibited, either.

I don't like the idea of making the music the attraction to the Gospel.

CCM'er, Mylon LeFevre has said many times that he considered the music as nothing more than a lure to get kids inside to hear the Gospel.

I hate that. It's awfully manipulative and I think that the gospel ought to be able to stand on it's own.

I do believe, though, that music is an acceptable art form for Christians and that there's nothing wrong with a Christian expressing himself and his worldview through music.

Are the lost more apt to follow the flesh or Christ?

The Bible tells us that the carnal man is at emnity with God.

Should we take their music, put God's Word's to it and expect it to be blessed.

You still haven't demonstrated that it's "their" music.

Rock music cannot be Christian. Consider the relation rock has to music; where did the term "rock and roll" come from?

There are numerous blues songs of the thirties and R&B songs of the 40's and pre rock 50's (the most popular is "Roll With Me, Henry") that include the phrase "rock and roll" in some form and it's generally excepted to be an antiquated slang term for sex.

But are you judging an entire genre of music on it's merits or on what people call it?

The Communist regime would not allow Rock music as they saw that it encouraged rebellion.

The communists also banned religion and persecuted Christians. What's your point?

And it was the music not the words that encouraged rebellion. That is why Russians under that regime listened to English rock, not for the lyrics but the music itself.

You just said that they didn't allow rock music.

Music does not have to be liked by us, it has to 1. Glorify God, 2. Instruct believers, 3. Edify believers and then at a stretch be used for evangelism.

Again, why can't you make music just for the saje of art?

Why is the music usually changed? Because, for example, little Jimmy is backslidden and not attending church. What is the answer? Let's take his music that in a backslidden state he enjoys and put our words to it! Does this seem like flawed logic to anyone else?

I've followed CCM for roughly fifteen years now, was involved in the production end of CCM for about eight years and, for a brief, unfortunate time in the early nineties, even played CCM.

I've never run across anyone who held to this logic.

[ September 09, 2002, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[M Wickens]

Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:

There's not one but it's not prohibited, either.

Wouldn't argue that one with you. Music can be used for evangelism, just carefully.

You still haven't demonstrated that it's "their" music.

Ever seen the scene in a night club where people are musically induced to seing their hips and the fleshly result of the music is easy to see? Surely music that is so sexually emotive cannot be right. I know there are many types of CCM but much of it is that way. Even the country music style stuff is that way. Garth Brooks has been quoted as saying concering country music "It is sex." Ever tried dancing to the traditional style of hymn music?

But are you judging an entire genre of music on it's merits or on what people call it?

I am judging rock by its sounds and the effects it has on people.

The communists also banned religion and persecuted Christians. What's your point?

You just said that they didn't allow rock music.

The communists had a lot of wrong going on. But look at the reasons for opposing the things they did. Obviously going against Christianity is wrong. But why oppose rock music? Because they saw the effect it had on people, it encouraged rebellion.

Drugs are not permitted, illegally they still get through though. It may have been illegal, but rock music still got through.

Again, why can't you make music just for the sakje of art?

But does that art edify? I would listen to classical. People say that is hypocritical but not when you analyse the music. Classical can be relaxing and is proven in studies to encourage thought and is academically profitable. I AM NOT saying people who don't listen to other types of music are stupid.

But studies show positive results from certain music types but not others. (Rock etc.)

Also, art has moral responsibility also. "One mans art is another man's pornography."

I've never run across anyone who held to this logic.

But that is the logic with many. "Let's use the style of music they like so that we get them to church"

 

[ChristianCynic]

Originally posted by M Wickens:
Rock music cannot be Christian. Consider the relation rock has to music; where did the term "rock and roll" come from?

And where did the church "steeple" come from? Can that be Christian?

What is the answer? Let's take his music that in a backslidden state he enjoys and put our words to it! Does this seem like flawed logic to anyone else?

Was it "flawed logic" for Paul to tell the men of Athens by their alter To the unknown God-- one altar among many-- he was going to tell them about this God they worship in ignorance (Acts 17:23)?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by M Wickens:
Ever seen the scene in a night club where people are musically induced to seing their hips and the fleshly result of the music is easy to see? Surely music that is so sexually emotive cannot be right.

You're falsely assuming that that represents a large part of rock and roll and it doesn't.

I can't imagine that happening at, say, a Bottle Rockets' or Buddy Miller show.

I've seen people dancing at a reverend Horton Heat show and people used to dance when my band played, but neither could scarcely be considered "sexual".

I know there are many types of CCM but much of it is that way.

Examples, please.

Even the country music style stuff is that way. Garth Brooks has been quoted as saying concering country music "It is sex."

Bad example. Garth Brooks isn't country and shouldn't be considered any sort of authority on country music.

It's a bit like asking Iggy Pop to comment on what gospel music is.

Ever tried dancing to the traditional style of hymn music?

Can't say I have but it's not made for dancing, is it?

I am judging rock by its sounds and the effects it has on people.

But you're assuming that all rock music is the same and that music affects eveyone in the same way.

Drugs are not permitted, illegally they still get through though. It may have been illegal, but rock music still got through.

And the criminalization of drugs has been a disaster. In the same way, the church waged a war against a cultural and artistic movement that it could never win when, instead, teh church could have made a huge impact for Christ.

But does that art edify?

Yes, many of us would argue that it does. It edifies me, anyway.

I would listen to classical. People say that is hypocritical but not when you analyse the music.

I think it could be hypocritical, in a sense.

After all, you can dance to classical music.

Hitler used classical music for evil purposes, just as some use rock music for illicit purposes.

The misuse of classical music by a few doesn't make it bad anymore than the misuse of rock by a few makes it bad.

Classical can be relaxing and is proven in studies to encourage thought and is academically profitable. I AM NOT saying people who don't listen to other types of music are stupid.

But studies show positive results from certain music types but not others. (Rock etc.)

Studies do shoe that people who listen to classical music do tend to be better educated than average and they do show that abies forced to listen to classical music are, on average, smarter but, my education being in sociology, I would tend to think that there are other familial conditions at play here.

There was a study not very long ago that showed that people who listen to alt.country, singer songwriter folk (both of which would be labled "rock" by the anti-rock crowd here)are shown to be in disproportionate numbers college educated.

I don't remember where I saw that, but if I find it, I'll post it here.

"One mans art is another man's pornography."

True, but the opposite is also true. What you would consider pornography, many of us would consider art.

But that is the logic with many. "Let's use the style of music they like so that we get them to church"

Sorry, that's not what I understood your previous post to say.

I agree with you to a point, in that it's wrong to use popular music as some carrot on a stick, but I don't see anything wrong with offering people an opportunity to worship in a way that is culturally relevant, so long as it's in accordance with Biblical guidelines for worship.

[ September 10, 2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Aaron]

M Wickens asked: "Ever tried dancing to the traditional style of hymn music?"

Smoke_Eater replied: "Can't say I have but it's not made for dancing, is it?"

Exactly.

As far as the difference between classical dances and dances to rock/pop/jazz, Michael Ventura said it this way.

When you felt transported by Mozart or Brahms, it wasn’t your body that was transported. The sensation often described is a body yearning to follow where its spirit has gone -- the sense of a body being tugged upward, rising a little where you sit. And you almost always sit. And, for the most part, you sit comparatively still. The music doesn’t change your body.

The classical dance that grew from this music had a stiff, straight back and moved in almost geometrical lines. The folk dances of the West were also physically contained, with linear gestures. The feet might move with wonderful flurries and intricate precision, but the hips and the spine were kept rigid.

 

[stubbornboy]

if rock and roll is not part of glorifing god then let it be.lets not put our own personal interest in what we may call gods work.i listen to rock not just christian rock but indie pop,deep house,classic rock as long as it cant affect your thinking and acts for god then theirs nothing to argue

 

[Alliswell]

Was that Stephen Curtis Chapman on the Billy Graham Crusade broadcast nationally last week?

He and his band did a song we have been singing in Praise and Worship time for several years, 'Open The Eyes Of My Heart, Lord' and the Choir sang, 'Shout To The Lord' and another contemporary one that we do and I can't remember which one.

I just tuned in to this thread tonight and read the whole thing.

I have been a church organist for years, and also was the accompanist for the Youth Choir when the Youth Musicals, such as "Tell It Like It Is" became popular.

We use the newest Baptist Hymnal which has some music that is fairly new on the scene, like "There's a Sweet Sweet Spirit In This Place"
"I Love You Lord",'Bless That Wonderful Name Of Jesus', 'Something About That Name', 'Majesty', and The Blood Will Never Lose It's Power" by Andre Crouch.

Our Youth Choir did a lot of Andre several years back: 'Everywhere', I Don't Know Why Jesus Loved Me', 'Soon and Very Soon', 'One Way To Heaven (The Freeway of God's Love)', and 'Through It All.' Most of these have a contemporary beat but I would not call it rock, and it definitely is Spiritual heart music that leads to reverence, joy, faith and committment. We did a contempory Psalms 19 also.

Is the Praise and Worship that has become a part of our services in the last few years some of what you are calling Contemporary?

It is more suited to Keyboard and Guitar than Organ and Piano and in the Youth Group they do it with sound track; but in the worship we do it. I usually let the piano do it and just sing along.

Some of the ones we do are:'Open The Eyes Of My Heart', 'Shout To The Lord', 'You Are The Air I Breathe', 'Sanctuary', 'I Can OnlyImagine','Your Grace Covers Me','I Could Sing Of Your Love Forever'and 'Change My Heart O God'.

If you'll notice, these are prayers!

Our young people are missionaries to the public schools and we regularly have professions of faith. It is amazing how many teen age boys are getting serious with the Lord.

We did Veggie Tales Jonah for VBS with music on sound track.

Then our Coed Youth Encampment did the Adult version of Jonah with a young ministerial student from ETBU doing the teaching. On the afterglow at our church that Sunday Night every student except a couple of sixth graders, who were the youngest to go gave a stirring testimony on the content of the Bible teaching!!

Someone posted that it is manipulative to lure them with popular music and the gospel should be able to stand on it's own.

My reply to that is how are you going to get them to come hear the gospel?

Parents won't allow much evangelism of their children one to one.

Our pastor for the last 8 years, whose wife is our Youth Director, has 3 children who graduated the last three years and all entered East Texas Baptist University on graduating. The youngest is already a contemporary Christian artist but that family has a talent for finding contemporary music that minister the Holy Spirit in a service, and Kendra loves to do the 'old folks' requests also.

We have a Christian radio station in Houston, and if I occasionaly listen, I turn it off when I stop, lest a passerby think I am tuned to a Heavy Metal Rock Station. Unless it has understandable words that minister the Holy Spirit to the hearers, there is no place for it in a service.

However, the Psalmist did write, "Play skillfully with a loud noise!"

Our pastor wisely tells the youth that we will do songs they love and leads them to also respect the great old hymns that have blessed to many generations.

That leads me to something that has puzzled me.

I do not rememember any of my contemporaries when we were growing up thinking that we had to have 'our' music. Even the popular music from before my parent's time was not boring to us.

I loved some of the old turn of the century popular music. My mother collected records of them, like: 'The End Of A Perfect Day','Just A Song At Twilight', 'When You And I Were Young, Maggie', 'Down By The Old Millstream', 'My Gal Sal', 'Love Letters In The Sand'(which Pat Boone revived),'My Blue Heaven', 'Carolina Moon', and even 'The Little Red Schoolhouse'. She always had youth around, and she had a portable wind-up antique Victrola that we would carry on picnics.

Popular music back then was so innocent!

Even the Country Western had such classics as 'Tumbling Tumbleweeds', 'Get Along Little Dogies', 'Empty Saddles In The Old Corral', 'That Silver Haired Daddy Of Mine','When The Bloom Is On The Sage', 'Water', 'Supper Time', and etc. Not a honky tonk nor adultery song among them.

I allowed my brother to inherit all of mothers old 78s, but I kept a few that are Reader's Digest updates of the old classic popular music, but still on 78s.

"We've come a long way, baby!"

Shalom

Alli

[ September 11, 2002, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: Alliswell ]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:

That's great Abiyah. If there's anything I can do to help, let me know. Also, Mr Curtis has excellent taste in that kind of music and I'm sure he would be glad to help you, too.

Mike

Why thank you, Mike. That's very nice. My dad got me into the 4-H club very early in life. Hank Locklin, Hank Thompson, Hank Snow, & Hank Williams. And all the Buck Owens, Merle Haggard, & Johnny Cash didn't hurt, either. My dad also had a very extensive collection of bluegrass gospel songs, and there was always great music at our house. I learned to love good music at a very young age.

BTW, thanx for the shout about Jorma's new record. I love it. And the song "What are They Doing in Heaven Today" is just beautiful.

 

[Brett Valentine]

Has anybody seen the new Michael W. Smith "Worship" DVD? I caught the tail end of "Agnus Dei." Definitely a song with a "rock" feel.

Very simple, yet entirely directed toward God. As the song wound down, quieter and quieter, eventually to silence, the audience picked it up and started singing it, very reverently, to God. All on their feet, many with eyes closed, many with hands raised.

Can you tell me for sure God was not in that?

Yes, there's pablum out there, yes, there's fluff, but there IS substance out there. . .

". . .Holy, Holy are You, Lord, God Almighty. Worthy is the Lamb, worthy is the Lamb Who is Holy. . ."

. . .works for me,
Brett

 

[Aaron]

stubbornboy? What a screen name! Welcome.

 

[Grizzly660]

Hey, sorry for joining the frey so late....

I've heard that today's current Hymns were placed to the music of tavern songs so that recent converts would be farmiliar with the music.
Makes sense to me, but I was wondering if anyone has any evidence of this. Anyone?

Also, I'm a drummer and a group of young adults played Amazing Grace in a new way the other day. We made it 4/4 time and put a "Rock beat" to it.
Wow! It rocked but still kept God's Grace Amazing!
What do you say about that? Did we de-sanctify the song or ruin it with a sinful beat?

Thanks.

 

[A Fiery Fundamentalist]

Originally posted by Grizzly660:
Also, I'm a drummer and a group of young adults played Amazing Grace in a new way the other day. We made it 4/4 time and put a "Rock beat" to it.
Wow! It rocked but still kept God's Grace Amazing!
What do you say about that? Did we de-sanctify the song or ruin it with a sinful beat?

Thanks.

I believe that your beat very likely would distract sinners from the message of the song. That is the beauty of hymns: everything about it, including the music, points to the lyrics, which often deliver the message in the clearest way possible. Your beat did indeed ruin the song by diverting attention away from the message to the groovy, cool, sensual beat. I grew up in CCM, and I now hate it with a passion. At the same time, my love for the traditional hymns deepens every day. If you wish to best use your music for church evangelism, then I would suggest learning the piano and/or organ.

 

[Alliswell]

In my opinion not at all, Grizzly. I am an old timer but I would so much rather see a teenager singing an upbeat 'Amazing Grace' with all their hearts and energy, than to see this sullen degenerated look that is trying to take over the angry young generation!

Christians have always taken worldly things, raised them from the mire, and given them back to the Lord where they belong.

Shalom

Alle