RE: Phillips Craig & Dean...

Kiffin said:

Philips, Craig and Dean are Oneness Pentecostals which is a dangerous heresy that denies the Trinity and espouses work salvation. I am amazed the CCM industry has promoted a group that belongs to non Christian religion.

Well, the problem is that it is an "industry," which has motives for its "promotions" that will be different from, say, a church's promotion of its own musicians. If Phillips, Craig, and Dean are popular enough, the "industry" only shoots itself in the foot if they don't continue to sell them, because they will affect their bottom line.

Anyway, the problem of Oneness musicians being used in the Church is a little more complex. Just because PC&D are Oneness Pentecostals doesn't mean that their music promotes that particular heresy; in fact, one of their best-known songs (and a personal favourite), "Shine on Us," is by Michael W. Smith.

And some music by Oneness songwriters has made it into the Christian mainstream. For example, our church uses the popular Hymnal for Worship and Celebration published by Word, which includes the song "We Shall Behold Him" by Dottie Rambo. Of course, there's nothing heretical about the song, which is basically a paraphrase of Scripture.

Discernment is called for, in other words. I suspect that Oneness Pentecostals are more influential in church music than we realize. A lot of them can really play!

On the other hand, there are blatant examples of their heresy in music. I have heard Oneness/"Apostolic" musicians singing songs that promoted "Jesus' name only" baptism, for example.

 

Interesting points brought by Saggy Woman, Smokeater, and Ransom. Do we toss the music because the musician is an avowed apostate?

My anti Philips, Craig and Dean stance is because they like most CCM musicians espouse themselves to be ministers. I then am forced to judge them in the same way I would judge a minister. My fear is also what may be preached or espoused at their concert and the general apathy of the CCM industry towards doctrine that even such CCM artists as Steve Camp and Charlie Peacock have complained about.

Elvis, Hank Williams Sr. or a secular artists such as Mariah Carey or Jewel who sings a Gospel song (Well in their Christmas albums) do not espouse to be ministers so I am less offended but I still can see where valid criticism can be made of that position.

Another question I could ask is what about Country musicians such as Martina McBride song Blessed, Tim McGraw's Angel Boy or Alan Jackson's Where Were You...? These songs which are popular in secular music at this time and all deal with spiritual issues though I am not sure of the spiritual condition of any of these singers. Yet, some of these songs it could be said are of higher quality that many CCM artists. Any comments regarding these songs?

Should we judge a Secular Musician's music who claims only to be singer differantly than a CCM musician music who claims his or her music career is a ministry?

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

I really enjoy their song "His Favorite Song of All" and saw that song performed by three students at at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary Chapel Service and it was a really moving song. Speaking of songs..somewhere someon (I think Dr. Griffin) had a list of songs commonly found in Baptist hymnals that were doctrinally wrong. I's like to see that list again.

 

mark said,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> ..somewhere someon (I think Dr. Griffin) had a list of songs commonly found in Baptist hymnals that were doctrinally wrong. I's like to see that list again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm... I haven't seen that list but maybe our good Dr. Bob could provide it for us again

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Just wanted to clarify, the whole thing about Ozzy being a satanist is an urban legend put out by people like av1611.
Ozzy's wife has said several times that teh couple has "no religious beliefs, Satanic or otherwise" and that Ozzy's "madman" persona is all for show.
Mike <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe it or not, I wasn't even going by the legend. I don't know much about those acid groups, but I do know alot of them are into satanism, and if not, then it's at least "secular unbelief" as I also mentioned ("no reliegious beliefs" as you quoted). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The Jesus of the Oneness is another "Jesus" and not just ignorance regarding the Trinity, Deity of Christ. For one thing they do not believe Jesus existed until Bethlehem. Christ is God only because the Spirit of God indwells His human body in its fullness. They say that Jesus is God, but really only mean that the Father who dwelt in the Son is God. The only basis for Oneness theology to claim that Jesus is God is that the man Jesus who walked this earth had God the Father inside of his human body. When the Onenesss say that the Son is the eternal God, all they really mean is that the Father who indwells the Son is eternal.

In Oneness theology the Son is relegated to a mere role played by God, for according to their view the Father, Son, and Spirit are three roles played by a uni-personal God.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know it's a mixed bag. The latter statement is what modalism is supposed to be, which would acknowledge Christ's fullness of deity (contrary to the JW's and Mormons), but make His praying to the Father, and sitting at His right hand seem like a farce. To try and get around this, they begin separating Jesus' human nature from the divine nature, leading to the adoptionism described in your first statement (God only "dwells" in a purely human Jesus). Thus they do in practice end up with unitarianism. I think many people are not consciously trying to do this, but the average Christian does not think much on deep theolgy, so it sounds somewhat biblical and they accept it. While the formulators and teachers of this doctrine will definitely be held more responsible by God (James 3:1), we must be careful in denying the salvation of the average person because they may say "three manifestations" instead of "three persons". Both symmetric statements are not from the Bible. But the works salvation of some would be their biggest peril.

 

Minister or not, if a theology is wrong, it is wrong. Indeed, one who teaches what is wrong will be judged in the end harsher.

But if a song is theologically correct, I think that it can still be used for good, no matter who sings it. The power of God is not limited to us goofs. He can use anyone He chooses to use.

 

Ok, listen guys, I am quite familiar with Phillips, Craig & Dean's music, and I am a big fan of the band. Kiffin, have yu listened to any of their songs? You claim that their doctrine says that they need works for salvation. Have you heard the song "Mercy came running?" "Mercy....went past all my failures to the point of my need...WHEN I COULD NOT REACH MERCY, mercy came running to me". That doesn't sound like salvation by works to me. The thing is, I (we) don't know the lives of Christian artists, because all we hear is the music. I'm not saying that what happens off the stage is all right, I don't know, and neither do you. Don't discourage people from supporting the group or listening to their music though. All I know is, PCD has put out some great songs, and I love their music. I challenge you to actually listen to what they have to say. Don't scorn the music if you happen to not like the person or his beliefs. Just listen to some of their songs. Here are some good ones that might make you think twice before you call them heretics. "When God Ran", "Mercy Came Running", "He'll do whatever it takes", "No matter how long it takes", "Crucified with Christ", "Favorite song of all", "Friend called Grace", "This is the Life", and "Restoration". I believe these men are born-again Christians, and that they love the Lord. Again, I can't know their motives, lives, beliefs, but I can get a pretty good idea from the quality of their music. Thank you for your time.

 

Eric,

They're not "into Satanism" - it's all fiction.

For years we have heard rumors that Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, Ozzy, Alice Cooper and even the Eagles, of all people, were Satanists.

Now, of course, we know that that's not true. In fact, Alice Cooper and two former members of the Eagles (Ritchie Furay and Bernie Leadon) are born again Christians.

May I ask which artists are Satanists?

The only one I know of who actively claims to be a Satanist is King Diamond and the more we hear from him, the more I tend to believe that his brand of Satanism is more show than sincerity.

Also, what do you mean by "acid rock"?

Acid rock (both the music and the phrase) went out when Richard Nixon left the White House.

Whatever Ozzy may be, he certainly isn't "acid rock".

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

 

Here's the deal with music--it worships something. Christian music should worship God. Secular music worships whatever the artist values (fame, money, non-Christian beliefs, or even morality in some cases, though these few don't consider God the author of morality, so it is flawed)

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cuffy7:
Here's the deal with music--it worships something. Christian music should worship God. Secular music worships whatever the artist values (fame, money, non-Christian beliefs, or even morality in some cases, though these few don't consider God the author of morality, so it is flawed)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. The vast majority of songs simply tell a story, they don't necessarily try to push any set of beliefs.

What, exactly is "flawed morality"? Either something is moral or it's immoral.

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

 

cuffy7,

I must agree with smoke eater on this one. Not all music "worship's something". I can have a discussion with someone completely about my financial needs. Does that mean I am worshipping money? Of course not. Music, I agree, is and should be set aside to praise, honor, and/or worship God.

The reason why most Christians choose what artists we listen to is because there are many artists, while there songs may song good and all, who do not sing for the right reasons. Often this reason is they are out there to make money. I believe by PCD attaching themselves to certian belief systems by being the leaders and teachers of those belief systems they promote them. If they promote works salvation (i'm not saying either way if they do or do not as I don't know enough), then even the meaning of the words they are singing must be looked at carefully. Have you ever really sat down at a hymnal and looked at the words you are singing. I think you'd be surprised at some of the lyrics in your hymnal at church.

(btw- welcome to the BB!)

UNP
Adam

 

Cuffy,

I answered you on another thread that my assertions about PCD being heretics are true. I never said you will find it in their songs for they are smart enough not to get to deep it their Trinity denying heresy in their songs since they will lose a recording contract and money.

I will also agree with Smokeather. All music does not have to be a Praise and Worship song. Not even all the Psalms are nor the Song of Solomon even. As with all things, Music, TV, books, movies..Christian discernment must be used

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

Philips Craig and Dean may be Oneness Penecostals, but I still believe that they are being used by God in a tremendous way. Instead of discussing their "heresy" why don't we say a prayer for them that they will see the faults in their denomination and allow God to work through in an even more powerful way?
I have been to their concerts and have gone home being extremely blessed. I do believe that they are praising God through their songs, and their only intent with their music is to worship God and give Him the glory for all that He has done and given to us.

In Christ's gracious love,
Teresa

 

baptist forever said,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I do believe that they are praising God through their songs, and their only intent with their music is to worship God and give Him the glory for all that He has done and given to us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Oneness god is not the God of the Bible is the problem. I'm sure the Mormon taberanacle choir as well as Tibetan monks are sincere in their worship of their "god" in singing or chanting. There are many people with good intentions on the road to Hell.

We should pray for PCD to repent and convert to Christ and not the Oneness Jesus for Oneness Heresy is not simple ignorance of the Trinity (as may be common among many novice Christians) but is teaching a differant God and a differant Jesus.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kiffin:
The Oneness god is not the God of the Bible is the problem. I'm sure the Mormon taberanacle choir as well as Tibetan monks are sincere in their worship of their "god" in singing or chanting. There are many people with good intentions on the road to Hell.

We should pray for PCD to repent and convert to Christ and not the Oneness Jesus for Oneness Heresy is not simple ignorance of the Trinity (as may be common among many novice Christians) but is teaching a differant God and a differant Jesus.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


How are we to be 100% sure that the God that they worship is not the same one we worship. I read through thier beliefs as well, and what I understood was the only major difference was that they do not believe in the Trinity. That can be understandable. The Trinity is not written in the Bible, it is implied but not written.
Didn't Jesus say, if you call my name then I will come. Who are we to say that they haven'tcalled on Christ and repented? That would be judging the heart, would it not?

We can learn a lot about a person simply by reading what they have written. From their lyrics, on what proof can you say that they do not worship the same God. Oneness Penecostal, from my understanding, is another denonmenation, not another religion.
Who is to say that God hasn't given them faith? That would be judging the heart again, would it not?

Read through their lyrics a few times, then reread their statements of what they believe from the websites that you posted.

Have you even read them, or are you going on what another person has told you? Before you say what a person is, make sure that without a doubt, that they are what you say they are.

In Christ's gracious love,
Teresa

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> How are we to be 100% sure that the God that they worship is not the same one we worship. I read through thier beliefs as well, and what I understood was the only major difference was that they do not believe in the Trinity. That can be understandable. The Trinity is not written in the Bible, it is implied but not written.
Didn't Jesus say, if you call my name then I will come. Who are we to say that they haven'tcalled on Christ and repented? That would be judging the heart, would it not?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Teresa, that only differance is the foundation of all we believe. To deny the Trinity is to undercut all we believe. I would seriously doubt they hold to Salvation by Grace through faith since all Oneness groups teach work salvation and baptismal regeneration. I judge them by their churches and their churches are cults. These guys are pastors in Oneness groups. They certaintly are not ignorant of their Churches beliefs and if they are not Trinity deniers, work salvationist, Baptismal regenerationalists they should leave these churches.

They are not a differant Christian denomination but a false religion. Oneness groups do not believe Jesus existed until Bethlehem. Christ is God only because the Spirit of God indwells His human body in its fullness. They say that Jesus is God, but really only mean that the Father who dwelt in the Son is God. The only basis for Oneness theology to claim that Jesus is God is that the man Jesus who walked this earth had God the Father inside of his human body. When the Onenesss say that the Son is the eternal God, all they really mean is that the Father who indwells the Son is eternal.

In Oneness theology the Son is relegated to a mere role played by God, for according to their view the Father, Son, and Spirit are three roles played by a uni-personal God. That is why they are called Modalists. God appears in differant modes and is kissing cousins to Hindu, Bahai beliefs regarding differant manifestations.

So their Jesus is a false Jesus and is not that much differant than other cult groups. Oneness are better at cloaking their apostasy than most.Will we be saying Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, New Agers are Christians simply because they say they believe in Jesus?

God is a Trinity. To deny that is to deny God. A common thread among all cult groups is a denial of the Trinity.

Philips, Craig and Dean know that if they got to explicit about their beliefs thay would lose their fan base. They'll follow a "Touch by an Angel" philosophy in their music lyrics in order to keep the money flowing in.

They facts about Philips, Craig and Dean can be found in a earlier post on this thread. It shows their churches and positive belief they are oneness. This is not something they hide.

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

Teresa,

No one here is saying that you can't listen to Phillips, Craig, and Dean, and we aren't even attacking them as people. We are attacking their doctrine and teachings. I still listen to a few of their songs. I think kiffin has some strong points. What would you think of a group of who denied Jesus as their savior, yet still sung powerful worship songs to God? Would they be top on your list of favorite artists for thier witness to the world as Mark Lowry or the Gaithers are? These artists may not be that extreme, but they come close. I think kiffin is trying to show that while their music may sound good, their ministries are not good testimonies to the world, in fact, its heresy and is not spreading the gospel to people.

"That can be understandable. The Trinity is not written in the Bible, it is implied but not written"

Implied to the point that it is impossible to study and still deny it. I'm not fluent in either Greek or Hebrew, but a small study into the Trinity of our Lord left in me the unmistakable fact that God is three in one. By denying the Trinity it leaves the door wide open to deny just about everything else in the Bible and pave the way for works salvation/baptismal regeneration, as their ministries are.

UNP
Adam

 

Mercy came running like a prisoner set free
past all my failures to the point of my need
when the sins that I carried were all I could see
and I could not reach mercy, mercy came running for me

Does not sound like a man steeped in the depths of legalism.
Read the lyrics to these men's songs before spreading rumor. Many of their songs are about Grace and Mercy
Who could Oneness Pentecostals support men who sung against their teachings

 

Not a rumour ekim but it is FACT they are Oneness. Check out earlier links. They are members of Oneness Pentecostal churches. The lyrics you quoted could be reinterpreted a variety of ways.

 

Quite often lyrics can be decieving. They say different things to different people. Like was said before- do you think PCD would come right out and deny the trinity in their music? Of course not, they would not be as big as they are. No rumors are being spread here. I personally made sure of that when I asked for verification of what was being said. I know at least three people who vigeriously defended PCD on this board until the truth about them was really known.

UNP
Adam