reading Philippians instead of a sermon?

[mont974x4]

I agree, but does it MANDATE a sermon EVERY Sunday morning? And really, Is this passage not primarily about the informal preaching of the gospel that an evangelist does?

I will add that my pastor his heavily influenced by reformed teaching and practice (as am I), so it will be interesting to see if he would even consider this idea...I will find out sometime this week and try to remember to let you all know his reaction.

My understanding of Reformed policy is that the regulative principal of worship rests heavily on the primacy of preaching. It also asserts that only those things which are expressly commanded by God in Scripture are to be allowed in worship. That means the reading of the Word, the preaching of the Word, prayer, singing and the Sacraments are essential elements of worship.

I would be surprised if a reformed-leaning pastor allowed preaching to be sidelined by reading. Just as they would not allow preaching to become secondary to singing, as is often the case in many other churches.

I would imagine a special service, not a main Sunday worship service, may be allowed for what what you are asking to do.








There is nothing informal about evangelism. Preaching is preaching. It must be done with careful and prayerful dedication to remain true to the Word as God inspired it.

Is preaching a "mandate"? I would say....yes, most assuredly. I find no example in Scripture where God called a man to go and read. Why?

2Ti 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. (NASB, emphasis mine)

Preach.....because a time will come when men will not endure it. Why then should we suggest, imply, or infer that to not preach is ever OK?

 

[mont974x4]

The Reformed conviction on worship.

Is this http://www.arbca.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=65 the link you shared the other day?

If so, I spent a couple days reading through both papers (the one on worship and the one on revelatory gifts) and enjoyed them. They were quite helpful.


Thanks
Jason

 

[annsni]

The Reformed conviction on worship.

Yes and I agree with what it says but I don't see where it says that a service cannot be prayer, Scripture reading and song.

 

[Herald]

But you've just made my point.

Incorrect. Acts is a transitional book. Many (but not all) of its practices were exclusive to the early Apostolic church. We do not meet daily. God has ordained one day in seven for the church to meet corporately for worship.

The early church did these things daily, we generally do them one, 2, or 3 times a week, and the Lord's supper even less frequently. Very few would argue that we should have a sermon every day.

I am not proposing a sermon every day. Again, the church is commanded to gather for worship on the Lord's Day - one day in seven. Some churches, like mine, observe the Lord's Supper weekly.

You have simply made an emotional appeal "is it too much to ask to teach the Word of God on the only day the corporate body is commanded to meet?" It is similar to those would argue for a sunday evening service simply by saying, "Is it too much to ask to hear God's word twice on Sundays, when the rest of the week you won't hear it."

I made an appeal based on logic, not emotion. Paul's command to Timothy is a strong one. Logically, how would Timothy act on Paul's command? How often was the church supposed to meet corporately? Well, even at that point in the Apostolic church they met on first day of the week (1 Cor. 16:2). 1 Cor. 14:26 provides this insight, "What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation." The word for lesson is διδαχἠν (didaxen). It means "teaching." While most Baptists believe that revelations, tongues, and interpretations of tongues have ceased, the church still practices hymns and teaching. I can go further into this if necessary, but I think the evidence weighs on the side of the Word being preached on the Lord's Day as opposed to just read.

We can probalby ASSUME that adding comments to the reading and even preaching was the NORMAL practice, but we can't KNOW FOR SURE that it was the REQUIRED, EVERY SUNDAY practice.

See my previous comment.

You've made my point again, it is irregular, and MIGHT POSSIBLY be improper...but based on WHAT?

You keep confusing logic with making your point. Not preaching the Word on the Lord's Day is irregular. That is a statement of fact. That it falls in one of two categories (irregular or improper) is based on how serious you consider the departure from orthodoxy to be. My opinion? It is error. I base that on cumulative evidence in the Word of God on the side of preaching.

Another example might give a different perspective, so please bear with me an consider the following hypothetical example:

--> A pastor stands up to preach, But immediately passes out due to some illness, and some people help him out and call for an ambulance. The congregation is left in the room and problaby one of 2 things will happen:
1. Some lay leader or associate pastor will stand up and say, "Let's pray for our pastor and his family now." And after the prayer says, "I think the Lord and the pastor would want us to hear a message from God's word, and so reads a passage and gives a short explaination and exhoration based on some past study.
2. Some lay leader or associate pastor stands up and says, "Let's take this time to simply pray for our pastor, and after we finish, we'll go home to our families and keep the pastor in prayer."

Has the second church sinned in someway by not having a sermon in this unique, non-standard situation?

Of course not. You are presenting a scenario that is truly irregular and providential. It does not address the normal function of preaching. What if the sanctuary caught fire during the opening hymn and everyone had to flee the building. The fact that a message may not have been preached is not a sin. Your OP is not dealing with a situation like this. Your pastor has a decision to make; either preach the Word or not preach the Word.

 

[Herald]

Yes and I agree with what it says but I don't see where it says that a service cannot be prayer, Scripture reading and song.

22.5 The reading of the Scriptures, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in our hearts to the Lord; as also the administration of baptism, and the Lord's supper, are all parts of religious worship of God, to be performed in obedience to him, with understanding, faith, reverence, and godly fear; moreover, solemn humiliation, with fastings, and thanksgivings, upon special occasions, ought to be used in an holy and religious manner.

The framers of the confession wrote this as a positive command (based on scripture). As a positive command it assumes compliance.

By the way (to those who are going to say I am elevating a confession over the Bible), I am not citing this confession over scripture. I was asked what the discussion has to do with Reformed theology, and I was simply answering Ann.

 

[Herald]

Is this http://www.arbca.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=65 the link you shared the other day?

If so, I spent a couple days reading through both papers (the one on worship and the one on revelatory gifts) and enjoyed them. They were quite helpful.


Thanks
Jason

Jason, no. The link I shared in this thread is the part of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith that has to do with worship.

 

[mont974x4]

Jason, no. The link I shared in this thread is the part of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith that has to do with worship.

I'm sorry I was not clear. I was asking if you had posted that link a few days ago in a different thread. I knew you were not posting the same link in this thread.

 

[12strings]

There is nothing informal about evangelism. Preaching is preaching. It must be done with careful and prayerful dedication to remain true to the Word as God inspired it.

Even you must admit a difference in formality between a one-on-one "preacing of the Gospel" in evangelism and a sermon in a worship service...which do you thing Romans 10 is speaking of?

Is preaching a "mandate"? I would say....yes, most assuredly. I find no example in Scripture where God called a man to go and read. Why?

2Ti 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. (NASB, emphasis mine)

Of course preaching is a mandate, the question here is when.

Preach.....because a time will come when men will not endure it. Why then should we suggest, imply, or infer that to not preach is ever OK?

That's an easy question: Tonight I was playing doggies with my 10-month old daughter, I was not preaching. Last week I was sitting in a classroom...again not preaching. I don't preach most of the time...in fact my pastor doesn't preach most of the time... probably only a few hours a week, even if you include private conversations and smaller-group teaching.

Some Church's have a Wednesday night prayer meeting with no preaching.

Why not a service devoted to something rarely gotten in the course of sermons that focus on a small section of text...the entire sense of an epistle in one setting, complete with all its theology, encouragements, exhortations, and calls to action?

 

[Herald]

I'm sorry I was not clear. I was asking if you had posted that link a few days ago in a different thread. I knew you were not posting the same link in this thread.

Oh, sorry. I think I did.

 

[mont974x4]

I don't need to admit any such thing. I maintain that preaching is preaching. Romans 10, in my estimation, is universal to all preaching. Why? Because the Gospel is the subject at hand, or it should be.


If you think Scripture reading is not given enough time in your church the answer is not to deny the proper time to preaching. The answer is to make time for reading Scripture.

It sounds to me like you don't like how your pastor preachers through the Bible. I would suggest talking to him about it.

A prayer meeting is just that, a prayer meeting. It is not an occasion of corporate worship. There is nothing wrong with prayer meetings. If you want more prayer, don't preach less....pray more. Maybe have a time open for people to pray, or share a Scripture, during the service before, or after, the sermon is preached.

 

[mont974x4]

Oh, sorry. I think I did.

I believe it was before you got "Herald" back and posted as "Reformed". In any case, thank you.

 

[Herald]

I believe it was before you got "Herald" back and posted as "Reformed". In any case, thank you.

You're welcome.

 

[Herald]

I don't need to admit any such thing. I maintain that preaching is preaching. Romans 10, in my estimation, is universal to all preaching. Why? Because the Gospel is the subject at hand, or it should be.


If you think Scripture reading is not given enough time in your church the answer is not to deny the proper time to preaching. The answer is to make time for reading Scripture.

It sounds to me like you don't like how your pastor preachers through the Bible. I would suggest talking to him about it.

A prayer meeting is just that, a prayer meeting. It is not an occasion of corporate worship. There is nothing wrong with prayer meetings. If you want more prayer, don't preach less....pray more. Maybe have a time open for people to pray, or share a Scripture, during the service before, or after, the sermon is preached.

Good points. Preaching is not a zero sum game. Don't take away from preaching if you want more scripture reading and prayer.

 

[12strings]

I don't need to admit any such thing. I maintain that preaching is preaching. Romans 10, in my estimation, is universal to all preaching. Why? Because the Gospel is the subject at hand, or it should be.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one.

If you think Scripture reading is not given enough time in your church the answer is not to deny the proper time to preaching. The answer is to make time for reading Scripture.

It sounds to me like you don't like how your pastor preachers through the Bible. I would suggest talking to him about it.

A prayer meeting is just that, a prayer meeting. It is not an occasion of corporate worship. There is nothing wrong with prayer meetings. If you want more prayer, don't preach less....pray more. Maybe have a time open for people to pray, or share a Scripture, during the service before, or after, the sermon is preached.

I have no problem with the way my pastor preaches through scripture. I think that's what he SHOULD do. I simply think that a reading through of Philippians would give something unique to the congregation in the following ways:
-They would hear the letter in much the same way that a NT congregation might have heard it.
-they would get a sense of the letter as a whole, which can sometimes get lost in shorter sections that are preached. Even if it were done in 4 consecutive weeks a chapter at a time, with a sermon, most people would have very little recall of chapter 1 by the time chapters 3 & 4 rolled around.
-While they could (and should) read it at home to get that sense, there is, I believe a unique place for hearing God's word read.
-Such a service would no doubt have a brief explanation at the beginning of what the book is about, and why we are doing it, though I would not call that a sermon.

--> I suppose I simply remain unconvinced that there is a scriptural prohibition against such an occasional (very infrequent) service, or a definite command that a sermon be preached at the main worship service every week, if in such a service Attention is given to hearing and responding to God's word, prayers offered, and hymns sung to God.
-Because of this, it my strong belief in the sufficiency of scripture that keeps me from saying such a service would displease God, since it seems God himself has not prohibited it...Incidentally, it is also my belief in the sufficiency of scripture that has moved me away from a regulative principle of worship and more toward a normative one.

 

[mont974x4]

So you asked for input for the simple reason of being able to argue your point and try to justify trying to get your pastor to do what you want.

 

[Herald]

Incidentally, it is also my belief in the sufficiency of scripture that has moved me away from a regulative principle of worship and more toward a normative one.

Interesting. It is my belief in the authority of scripture that moved me from the normative principle to the regulative principle.

 

[12strings]

So you asked for input for the simple reason of being able to argue your point and try to justify trying to get your pastor to do what you want.

No, I just wanted to see if there were any arguments against it that I had not thought of, and simply to see if the arguments I expected were the ones I would get. It is true that I did not expect the debate to change my opinion, but i suspect hardly any of the OP's on this board have that in mind.
I apologize if I have been dismissive of anyone's points. I'm simply unconvinced by them.

BTW, Update from today, I asked our Senior Pastor what he thought of this (without giving any arguments for or against it) and he said he "might be open to that." He on his own brought up the fact that it would likely be very similar to the way the epistles were read in the early church, though he said it might be good to have a short explanatory introduction before each chapter. Who knows if we will actually do this or not, we'll see.

My pastor and I have a great relationship, and I don't have any need to "get him to do what I want." I simply make suggestions from time to time, some of which he uses, some of which he disagrees with...just as he does for me with the music.

Thanks to all for your replies. They did give me more food for thought.

-Andy


Thanks to all

 

[Jerome]

They did what the OP is suggesting for one of the sessions of the 'Passion' extravaganza last year:

Passion 2012 – A Recap

Louie Giglio, Fancis Chan, John Piper, Beth Moore, and singer Lecrae took turns reading the entire book of Ephesians. The words “Jesus Speak to Me” appeared on the big screens behind them, and each time a speaker finished reading his/her excerpt there was a long period of silence. After all of Ephesians had been read, Giglio pronounced; “This is the Word of God.” Then he asked those who had experienced God speaking to them to raise their hands.

video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgYec28s7pg