Really, REALLY struggling with calvinism

Are you going to get nasty now and call me a liar?

 

If the "elect" is all that Jesus died for how you explain the following:
2 Peter, chapter 2
1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4:

 

A now for the facts...

According to this view seen above, God, in eternity, looked down through the ages and saw who would repent and believe and those who He foresaw would repent and believe were elected to salvation. This view is correct in only one point, namely, that election took place in eternity. It is wrong in that it makes the ground of election to be something in the sinner rather than something in God. Read Eph 1:4-6 where election and predestination are said to be "According to the good pleasure of His will" and "To the praise of the glory of His grace".

Eph 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

This view thought the popular one with the majority of Baptists today, is open to many objections.

******* It denies what the Bible says about man's condition by nature. The Bible does not describe the natural man as having faith.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Both repentance and faith are gifts of God, and God did not see these graces in any sinner apart from His purpose to give them. "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins", Acts 5:13 "When they heard these things they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, `Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life'", Acts 11:18. "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth" 2Ti 2:25. See also:

Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Cor 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Election was not because of foreseen faith, but because of foreseen unbelief. It is not the election of God's faithful ones, but the faith of God's elect, if we are to keep Scriptural words

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

****** It makes the human race differ by nature, whereas, the Bible says, we are all by nature the children of wrath and all clay of the same lump.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Men are made to differ in the new birth.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

***** It perverts the Scriptural meaning of the word "foreknowledge".

The word as used in the Bible means more than foreknowledge about persons, it is the foreknowledge of persons. In Rom 8:29,30, the foreknown are predestined to the image of Christ, and are called, justified and glorified. In 1Pe 1:2, the word for "foreknowledge" is the same as "foreordain" in the twentieth verse of the same chapter, where the meaning cannot be "foreknowledge" about Christ. God's foreknowledge about persons is without limitations; whereas, His foreknowledge of persons is limited to those who are actually saved and glorified.

******* It is open to the strongest objection that can be made against the Bible view.

It is often asked, "If certain men are elected and saved, then what is the use to preach to those who are not elected?" With equal propriety we might ask, "If God knows who is going to repent and believe, then why preach to those who according to His foreknowledge, will not repent and believe?" Will some repent and believe whom He foreknew would not repent and believe? If so, He foreknew a lie.

Right here is the weakness of much of modern missions. It is based upon sympathy for the lost rather than obedience to God's command. The inspiration of missions is made to rest upon the practical results of missionary endeavour rather than upon the delight of doing God's will. It is the principle of doing a thing because the results are satisfactory to us.

If we are faithful, God is as pleased with our efforts as when there are no results.

2 Cor 2:15-16 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

The elect prior to their conversion are known only to God. We are to preach the gospel to every creature because He has commanded it. He will take care of the results. Compare with:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

1 Cor 3:5-6 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

John 6:37-45 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets,

And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

It is ours to witness; it is His to make our witnessing effective.

 

Whatever did I say that would cause you to conclude that we would lose our free will? We have free will both before and after our salvation. God created us in his image and likeness. That is one of the ways that in which he created us in his likeness in that he gave us a free will. We are able to reason things out and make choices. That sets us apart from the animals which don't have that capability. We are made in God's image and likeness who also is able to reason and make choices. He gave us an intellect. He gave us the power to choose between good and evil. Adam chose to disobey. Man has been choosing of his own free will to disobey ever since. That is why God sent his Son--to pay the penalty for man's disobedience--all of man's disobedience, not just the elect.

The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. (Titus 2:11)
God gives every man the chance and the choice to trust him for salvation.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Every man is without excuse.
Some (as in North America) have more opportunity than others. They will give account for that. But every man is without excuse for not trusting Christ. There is no "elect" in the way that Calvin defined it.
DHK

 

All I said is that you ignore Romans 8 and 9 and so you don't properly use scripture.

Only you know if you truly "think" you are only following the Bible and not man made theology.

I can't know your heart and mind.
I am just saying it is not true, you are NOT following Biblical teaching on this matter.
Whether or not you are "honestly mistaken" is between you and God.

 

I say it is true and what you are posting is not Scripture but your own personal belief and cherry picken Scriptures.

 

Very interesting.
Jarthur, I doubt you will get anywhere with BB but I am learning from your posts so keep it up

 

You still fail to deal with Romans 8 and 9.

Who is "cherry picken"

I am still learning. I sure don't know everyhting and I can't quote every verse in the Bible.
But you can't read Romans 8 and 9 and still come away with a view like what you have and do it honestly.
If you can, please exlplain.
PLease explain Romans 8 and 9.

 

Please explain this from your freewill position.
I would really like to know.
I do want to know the truth.

 

The breaking down of the middle wall and the coming in of the Gentiles by Grace and not works of the Law, such as circumcism.

The red is what was prechosen.

Romans, chapter 12

"3": For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Red again!

John, chapter 12

"32": And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You see it one way, I see it another now which is right. I say God's Holy word that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever will believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.
Amen,

 

You are still ignoring Romans 8 and 9. I haven't seen you post them and explain.

 

Romans: 8
29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Have you been glorified yet? If not it wasn't talking about you.

Romans: 9

As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26: And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

These certainly were not pre-chosen.

Now you answer this one:
2 Peter, chapter 2
1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


These were false teachers so they were not the "elect" and yet were "bought by the Lord". How come if they not the elect?

 

This passage, used in defence by many Calvinists, is a description of what Christians (the elect) are, and their purpose in life. It is not about the unsaved. Notice that passages about "the elect" are always directed to the saved. It speaks to their purpose in life.

Then you have a wrong definition of faith.

You have proved nothing. What is it that you are trying to say. A man is saved by faith. We exercise faith every day. I have faith (confidence, trust), that when I put my key into the ignition of my car and turn it, that my car will start. Perhaps some day it won't start. The reason is not because of my faith, but because both the car and man are not perfect. They have defects. They are subject to the second law of Thermodynamics. They break down. But I can put my faith in a perfect God, whose promises are perfect and will never break down or fail. This is not a gift given by God when put in the context of salvation. Neither is repentance. True faith includes repentance. Your list of verses (many taken out of their context) did nothing to sway me or convince me. You have a wrong definition of faith.

You have just denied what you said by quoting the verse you did. Election is by the faith of God's elect, NOT because of foreseen unbelief as you previously stated. This, again, is all according to God's foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, ...

This describes the unsaved man, except the last verse which you have taken out of context.

Wrong again. You need to come to an understanding of what the new birth is. It is essential that you do. This verse is saying that we are all the same, not all different. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. All men are born of the flesh. In that we are all the same. But not all men are born of the Spirit. Thus the necessity of the new birth. You must be born again.

Your God is not my God. My God is omniscient who knows all things and whose knowledge is unlimited. You have just admitted that your God is limited; his knowledge is limited; that He is not omniscient. I am sorry. I could never beleive in such a God. You said:
His foreknowledge of persons is limited to those who are actually saved and glorified. No, he knows everything about every person, saved or not.

Yes, I realize that because you don't know who the elect are you must preach the gospel anyway.
DHK

 

And when Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself" (John 12:32), He certainly did not mean that every individual of mankind would be so drawn. If so, the drawing would mean taht all were saved. What He did mean was that Jews and Gentiles, men of all nations and races, would be drawn to Him. And that is what we see is actually happening...is it not?

Romans 12... lets look at the context


In chapters 1-11, Paul laid the doctrinal foundation for the lifestyle he now calls upon all Christians to adopt and to manifest in day to day living. In verses 1 and 2 of chapter 12, Paul has characterized the lifestyle which God’s mercies motivate and which God’s grace enables. The Christian is expected to respond, motivated by the mercies of God. Grace should beget gratitude, and it is on the basis of gratitude that Paul bases his appeal to Christians. Paul calls for a lifestyle characterized by worship, worship expressed in self-sacrificial service. This service must first and foremost be to God, expressed through service to others. Our service of worship should be the logical outflow of God’s Word and His work in our lives. It is a reasoned worship, not at all like the frenzied, sensual, self-indulgent worship of the heathen. To practice this kind of worship, we must cease being shaped by the world around us, and have our minds renewed and transformed so that we look at all things from a divine perspective.

The verses which follow spell out the exercise of this renewed mind in greater detail. Paul outlines in verses 3-8 the Christian way of thinking concerning spiritual gifts. In verses 9-21, Paul describes the Christian’s relationship with others as the outworking of love. This new mind relates differently to human government, realizing that it has been given divine authority (13:1-7). The new mind relates to others out of the obligations required by true Christian love (13:8-14), realizing that strength is given by God to minister to those who are weak (14:1–15:6). It requires Jews and Gentiles to relate in an entirely different way than they have done before (15:7-13).

The Structure of Our Text

Our text divides into three main sections. In verse 3, Paul introduces the subject of spiritual gifts with a call to clear thinking. In verses 4 and 5, Paul calls Christians to think corporately. Spiritual gifts must be understood and practiced in the context of the body of Christ. Paul illustrates Christian thinking in verses 6-8 by focusing on the attitudes and actions appropriate to specific spiritual gifts. We can therefore outline the structure of our text:

(1) A call to straight thinking about spiritual gifts — verse 3

(2) A call to corporate thinking about spiritual gifts — verses 4-5

(3) A call for practice consistent with spiritual gifts — verses 6-8


TThe text proper Romans 12 1-6

12:1 I call upon you, therefore, brethren, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice -- living, sanctified, acceptable to God -- your intelligent service;

12:2 and be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for your proving what 'is' the will of God -- the good, and acceptable, and perfect.

12:3 For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith,

12:4 for as in one body we have many members, and all the members have not the same office,

12:5 so we, the many, one body are in Christ, and members each one of one another.

12:6 And having gifts, different according to the grace that was given to us; whether prophecy -- 'According to the proportion of faith!'

************

It is clear that Paul is speaking to the elect, for if not the grace given in verse 3 applies to all mankind and all are saved..which we do not see. Also the gifts given would also apply to all mankind. This is clearly wrong wrong to see it this way.

 

So...you don't know the "how", but you (meaning calvinists) know the "why"?

 

Are you referring to babies in hell here, and because of sympathy we do not believe it?

 

Of course Paul is talking to the church but about all things. Paul always knew that the few before him was not going to be all the church so he taught them things that included all mankind. I do the same today, how about you? What help to this post does the questions you ask above play here. I don't see the connect?

It says all men does it not? Now all men are not going to answer but God also said "come unto me all ye ends of the earth and be ye saved". right?

You never did answer my question. I think you should answer some of our question instead of posting so many of your own. To answer a question with a question could go on forever.
Why were non-elect bought by Jesus?

2 Peter, chapter 2
1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

 

What?

That doesn't make any sense.

 

Eph 1..DHK said...

Being that we both disagree on this...lets look at the passage...

Eph chapter 1

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace be to you, and peace,from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

We are Blessed...with spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are Blessed...for He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We are Blessed...for He has predestinated us unto the adoption of children ...according to the good pleasure of his will

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

We are Blessed...for we are accepted

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We are Blessed....for we are redeemed ....according to HIS grace
We are Blessed....for we are forgiven ....according to HIS grace


8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

We are Blessed....with God knowing wisdom

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

We are Blessed....for we now know His will...according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

We are Blessed....with an inheritance

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We are Blessed....for we are SEALED

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

******************

now..going by this passage...who choose who?

when did the choosing take place?

 

Have you been glorified yet? That is a simple question.

They were aliens not the elect. That is easy too.