Really, REALLY struggling with calvinism

BB, you seem to love 2 Peter 2:1-3.

It seems to fit you though. Tying God's hands with the chains of mans own will seems to me to be a "damnable heresy"

Also, those threee verses seem to be very much like many people today with TV ministries etc.

 

What was predestinated here was His plan of Salvation of how we were to be blessed. (by Jesus Christ). There is no problem that His plan of Salvation was predestinated. It is just that you take the plan and place it individual.

 

No, Jarthur did not make the predestination personal, the Bible does.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

It seems quite obvious to me.

 

Not my Scriptures they are the Lord's. Are you calling Peter: 2 "damnable heresy"?


Are you glorified?

You do err on who the many brethern are?

 

I went back through and re-highlighted HOW we are chosen...

 

If you read what I posted, it is the chaning of the power of God with the will of man that I said was the heresy. I think the second Chapter of Peter is very informative of our day!

 

I did too webdog but he won't have it. I think it has something to do with Calvinism.

 

IN Christ...yes indeed.

now once again...

WHO CHOOSE WHO...IN CHRIST?

WHEN WAS THE CHOOSING......IN CHRIST??

This is where it always stops. This is where the twisting ALWAYS stops. They will change passages....change subjects....anything but answer.

going by this passage...who choose who??? when did this take place?

 

All Scripture are given by the inspiration of God!

 

see what I mean...they have no anwser

 

the game is over....

lets just believe the Bible...what do you say?

 

Luke, chapter 10

Chapter
Book

"42": But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

OK! What I always tried to do.

 

see what I mean? change subect....change verses.

we will address ANY ANY verse you want. But 1st lets get this one.....

who choose who?

when?

I addressed romans 12...and john 12


come one now...lets do this...you can do it

who choose who?
when?

 

I don't disagree with Scripture. I disagree with your interpretation of it. Who is Paul writing to: unsaved or saved?
To the saved, he is writing to those who have received...all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
There is nothing there about who is choosing who.
It is true that in the passages that you quoted we are in Christ.
Every Christian is in Christ. We become "in Christ" the moment we are saved. The passage is written to Christians not to the unsaved. It is not about the election of the unsaved to being saved. It speaks of the blessing of those that are "in Christ" as you high-lited. Election, or being chosen or ordained is always directed to the saints in Christ, not the unsaved. Take Romans 8 for example. We are chosen or ordained for what purpose? To escape hell? NO! To be conformed to the image of Christ. It speaks of the purpose of the Christian walk. It says nothing of the election of some to hell and others to heaven--a well known heresy. Election speaks of the purpose of God in the lives of the believers--to be conformed to the image of Christ; to be to the praise of His glory; that we should be holy and without blame before him; etc. It speaks to the purpose of the Christian and not to the election of the unsaved.
DHK

 

Yes, I know what you mean.

Just so you know, I am learning from your posts, JArthur so even though BB apears that he will continue to avoid, I am learning so keep it up.

 

Dale,

Thanks for your kind words of support. I use to take up nearly each debate on the doctrine of Grace, but after a while you find yourself reading the same post from others saying what it is they dislike about grace, and you will find yourself posting nearly the same points you always post back to them and seems to always end the same way. One guy who is no longer around..(I think he got removed as a user)...use to say that the word GRACE should be removed from the Bible. This of course is silly and hardly no one would agree with it. But it goes to show just how far some will go to attack the word.

Not sure why I pick it up, but from time to time I do. It can be fun at times and yes you can learn a lot. If you are leaning as you say you are, let me repeat what others have already said. GET IT FROM THE WORD!! Don't take on a system because it seems right. Don't even take it on because great men says its right. Let your Bible show you its right. I have no reason to think you do not do this now...just a few words for you is all.

The attitude of men towards election is the acid test of their belief in grace. Those who oppose election cannot consistently claim to believe in salvation by grace. In Paul's day there was a remnant among the Jews who were saved according to the election of grace (Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.). Some of us have regarded as an axiom the statement that every man's destiny is in his own hands. But this is to deny the Bible. At no time is the destiny of the saint in his own hands, either before or after he is saved. Was my destiny in my own hands before I was saved? If so, I regenerated myself; I resurrected, by my own power, myself out of a state of sin and death; I am my own benefactor and have nobody to thank but myself for being alive and saved.

Please!!!! By the grace of God I am what I am.

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Pet 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;


John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Sorry..I didn't mean to preach to ya. Another reason I stopped posting so much..

anyway...I'm late for dinner...

God bless...

In Christ..James

 

Hello,
I enjoy reading these types of discussions, and I am probably closer to C. than A. Although for many Calvinists, that is the same as saying I am muddled and inconsistent.
But I am wondering if you can see the difference in what you said before and after the smiley.
Before, you allow for sincere differences in interpretation among fellow Christians. After, you seem to imply heresy if one's view of election does not match yours.
(No, I am not implying that doctrine does not matter, and that sincerity is all-important. Just that people with a differing view of election can believe in salvation by grace.)

Karen

 

We simply say and you won't accept is "you must believe". God in his Sovereignty made man to be able to choose to believe or not believe. It is not anything great that a man does but it all belongs to God, but because a man chooses to believe in Jesus Christ is not saying that that same man saved himself but far from it. After believeing then you become willing to be led by the Spirit of God to repentance and a new birth, rasied from a dead state of sin unto a lively hope in Jesus Christ. Notice that Salvation is of the Lord and all a man can do is to believe in Christ. He came to His own but His own received Him not. That alone is enough to tell you that all those that are His did not receive Him. Also, "ye were aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, without God having no hope in the world. That too tell you that you were not of the chosen but by the Grace of God and without works He broke down the middle wall of partition that we too could have a right to the tree of life and not of the works of the Law such as circumcision as in Eph 2 that you try to make that works even "belief" but its the works of the Law it is talking about for it tell you so that circumcism is nothing. So, you must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who so diligently seek Him. Amen,

 

I don't see what you don't agree with, as I agree with everything you stated.

 

No, you are incorrect. There is a part that a man must "play." Man MUST BELIEVE! God can give repentance, faith, eternal life, etc. but He will only do so -- He will only "elect" and "predestinate" those who BELIEVE.

Sounds like you make God's election "arbitrary," no? How about the predestinated plan for believers is according to His good pleasure and will? Sound better?

It only denies Calvin's definition of man's "condition." If Calvin had a good definition, all would be well. But Calvin denies that man knows "good" when in fact, man knows good and evil.

This is a restricted sense of man's understanding. Man CAN understand that he needs a Savior -- he cannot understand "naturally" the mysteries of God which are the subject of this passage!

So true! Yet Calvin would have man see/understand the kingdom before he is even saved!

Right -- God did NOT foresee these "graces." What He foresaw was who would believe. THEN He GAVE these "graces" under His new covenant promises to those who BELIEVED. You're always running one step ahead of God, friend. If God's foeknowledge is no more that foreordaining, then 1) to say God "predestined" whom He foreknew is meaningless -- He "predestined whom He predestined??" 2) and God is NOT omniscient. What is "omniscient" when everything is decided beforehand?

GOOD! God gives repentance to BELIEVERS!!

Wonderful!! We can't boast that we are "elect!" We can't work for salvation but we CAN BELIEVE! We believers are thus, "ordained" unto good works! Wow? I think if you just let the Spirit speak, you got a "scoop" for ALL Calvinists!!

Huh? God can see who won't believe but He can't see who will??

So why won't you and Calvin let all of us have an equal "shot" at salvation??

Ah, ah, ah! Getting ahead of yourself again! "Foreknowledge about persons, it is the foreknowledge of persons" alright -- about persons who BELIEVE. Do you deny this that Sproul even avers? Now go and apply your "predestination, called, justified, glorified -- if you even comprehend what they mean.

You have taken the "sot" on this one! The "strongest pbjection" would be against those who don't believe evangelism makes a difference! And Calvinism surely fits that description. Even in its defense, you don't deny that it makes no difference in the end! Your "fallback" of "obedience" denies the power of God of God to use our witness to change outcomes, sir!

There is a certain fascination with this reasoning -- of course we witness because we are commanded and because as believers we want to. Of course, God foreknew who would BELIEVE. And the results are up to Him. But don't make Paul's ministry NOTHING! If Paul or anyone felt like their mission made no difference, why not just be a good "closet Christian?" Why risk deprivation and even survival for nothing? God surely doen's call all of us to be missionaries. Why not just pay those who are adventurous?

Arthur -- I guess Calvinism just takes the motivation all out of me. That seems to be the experience of the Calvinist church as well.

skypair