Really, REALLY struggling with calvinism

Hi Emily,

First off, let me ask you to not assume too much about that I believe. According to me the lost do indeed have a choice. The fact that the lost, on their own, will always make the same choice does not mean that they are not choosing.

Let me put it to you this way. Given a choice between Pizza Hut and Domino's I would choose Pizza Hut 100 times out of 100. Now, would you say that I didn't really have a choice? I don't think you would. It isn't as if the lost choose to reject Christ because that is their only option. They choose to reject Christ because that's what they want to do.

I say that God did give man a free will, in a sense. The tough thing about the subject of "free will" is that what you mean by "free will" and what I mean by "free will" may be very different things, so we may think we disagree because we are talking about two different things without realizing it.

If by "free will" you mean "not influenced by anyone or anything" then it should be obvious that no one has a free will in that sense. There is no decision that we make that is not influenced by something, whether it is another person or our environment or our blood sugar or our own preferences or whatever.

If by "free will" you mean that we get to make our own choices, and that we have to live with the consequences of those choices, then I say that God did give us free will in that sense. But the choices we make are influenced by many things, and one of the major things that influence our choices is our sin nature.

Our hearts are desperately wicked and deceitful above all things. We are naturally self-centered, and why shouldn't we be? (Have you ever noticed that you don't have to teach kids to be selfish? You do have to teach them to share.) There aren't many people who choose selflessness over selfishness, and even those who do usually do for some ulterior motive. This is the reason that no one would ever submit to God on his own. Our sin just won't let us.

Fortunately God did not stop at just leaving us to our own choice. If He had then none would be saved. Instead, God overcomes our sin nature, giving us a new heart, one that freely chooses to believe.

The first question you would probably ask is this: why doesn't God do this for everyone? My answer: I don't know. I do know that those who believe are saved 100% because of God's work and choice, and 0% because of their own work and/or choices. I also know that those who do not believe are lost 100% because of their own sin and 0% because of God. Beyond that I cannot go.

I hope this helps explain more about what I believe (and don't believe). I don't know whether it will help you decide what you believe. Let me just add this - as long as you and I share faith in Christ then it makes no difference to me whether you become a Calvinist or an Arminian or what.

 

James, take a deep breath and back away from the computer...:laugh:

:type: You back? Good.

Your question has been answered REPEATEDLY, but you just will not even try to understand. It's very simple. Who chooses who? So I'm not "changing passages", Ephesians 1 is still the passage, no? If you haven't read DHK's response, he hit the nail on the head. The passage is dealing with the blessing "in Christ", not about the "U" petal. How can we be chosen "in Christ"...without putting our faith in Christ? This is the answer...AGAIN...to your second question: when we believe.

Now you may not like the answer, or even agree with it, but please be honest next time and dont' say we do everything but answer the question.

 

DHK,

I reapeat what I said earlier. I do not want you to answer for anyone else. I only want to know why you took advantange of the wonderful opportunity presented to you. I know why most do not - they love their sin too much. I only want to know what made you different. So far you have not told me what made you different. I suppose you never will tell me, but that's OK. I know Who it was anyway.

 

Why did you choose to be a good husband. You didn't have to then why did you. There is the knowledge of good and evil in us all and God in His Sovereignity made us able to choose which one we would follow. That is as simple as falling off a log backwards and none of you all can see it or can see it just will not accept it, such as "are you glorified"? Can you answer that one?

 

I am not going to cave into your theological paradigm and tell a lie just for your sake. Here is what you want me to say. You would like me to say that the Holy Spirit twisted my arm, almost broke neck, told me and even threatened me with death, and then in spite of any choice on my part shoved salvation down my throat without any of my doing. This is your view and what you want me to say.
But that is not what happened.

The Bible says that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
I called upon the name of the Lord. I was saved.
That was my decison. I made it out of my own free will. It was a decision I made because the offer of forgiveness of sins presented through the Bible made more sense than presented through the RCC. By faith I accepted Jesus Christ as my Saviour.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
DHK

 

I just want you to answer the question. You keep telling me what you did as if that answers the question of why you did it. The closest you have gotten to answering "why" is that it made sense to you. Would you say that you have more sense than the lost? Is that why?

God does not twist arms or break necks or shove anything down throats. Is that how you would characterize the raising of Lazarus? Did Jesus twist Lazarus' arm to get him out of the grave? Did He break Lazarus' neck? Did he shove resurrection down Lazarus' throat? Of course not, and that's not what the new birth is like.

And if you think I didn't choose salvation then you have not been reading what I have been saying.

 

James, I actually came to believe most of this before I read any books on the subject.
I was raised in an IFB background and our Church still has many similarities to the typical IFB (like KJV etc) but I began to learn a lot towards the end of high school.
I visited a church that was pastored by a friend of my dad and for the first time I saw that the word "predestinated" was actually in the Bible! I was dumbfounded. I had always thought that predestination was absurd and laughed at it until I actually read what the Bible says.
I do have understanding for people who were like me and did not understanf that just haven't been taught.
I do not understand pastors and people who have studied for years and still insist on a free will.
I just don't see how they can believe this when the Bible is so clear.

The unsaved hate grace but it makes no sense to me why a Christian would.


BTW, anyone that uses Macs can't be all bad It shows you have a good head on your shoulders ;-)
lol

 

Ahh, the good ole, post-predestination theory!

we get PREdestined POSTsalvation.

Quite backwards, we are predestined and thus GOd changes our hearts, then we believe.
See, the "pre" means "before"
"post" means after.
Go look it up if you don't want to take my word for it.

 

Hi Karen,

If I remember right, we have talked before.

Let me be clear on this. I do not hold to "anything goes" doctrine. I know you are not saying this, but I wanted to be as bold as I could. There is only one clear meaning of grace. There is no need for me to post the meaning here. If you and any one else be unsure of the meaning, the best place to go is Gods Word. This was the point of my post.

2 Timothy 2:15?Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I don't care how much you like the preacher, if its not in the Word, its not gospel. I have read many books that I agree with but use very little Bible to back one their words and this always leaves me hanging. I do not know about you, but I trust that you do as I that it all comes back to the Bible. I have had out 20 or more books covering my desk...laying on the floor....with printouts from the net....great words...from great men...while I look for the truth. While I seek to understand. While I hope others can give new light to a hard passage. Yet, in all cases. Each time I do this, I always end back at the passage. All that matters is what the Word says. Use all the flowers and singing birds you want to paint your picture, but it means nothing if the Bible does not support your picture. Pull on all my feellings..make me cry...make me wonder if its fair of God...tell all your sad stories...but if its not based on the Bible it is bunk!!!

Beyond this, you better know your Bible in order to withstand those that attack grace. Salvation is all about God. Election is about Gods mercy!! Atonement is Christ covering our sins ...justification then can come from God. Knowing all about salvation and the meaning of each word, with Bible verses to support our views will crush attacks on grace. All of this is found in the Bible.


In Christ...James

 

In case you haven't realized it, salvation appeals to the intellect of man. It is not an emotional appeal that saves man. Every sermon in the Book of Acts centers around the resurrectionl. At that point men and women either become angry and leave, or they become saved. The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most verifiable facts of history. This is why the message of the gospel is so powerful. It speaks of a risen Saviour, alive today, with whom one can have a personal relationship.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The RCC appeals to fear and to superstition: holy water, indulgences, the rosary, extreme unction, penance, veneration of saints, etc. This is not an appeal to the intellect. Because a sinful man waves his hand over water, and says a prayer over it, does make it any more holy, sanctified, or sacramental. It will not impart unto you grace of some sort. That is superstition.
The gospel appeals to the intellect.
I gave you my reason. It made sense that the true gospel of the Bible in opposition to what the RCC had been teaching me all of my life, was true and right. It was Jesus Christ (not the Catholic Church) that was the way to heaven. I trusted him that day as my Saviour. I have said this to you now how many times?? Why do you not believe me?
DHK

 

Hi Webdog,


Ok..go over this again with me.

1st the verse..Eph 1:4

Are you saying that we believed before the foundation of the world? Sorry to be so hard headed...I need more details on this one.

 

DHK,

I do believe you, but it doesn't make sense to so many, so why did it make sense to you? Superior intellect? Different environment? Something else?

 

Now you are asking me to answer for other people again. I can't do that. What I can say is that the gospel is a very simple message--the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1Cor.15:3,4).
One doesn't have to be a theologian to understand the gospel. So why are you confused? Why should it be so mysterious to you that I trusted Christ on that day, as opposed to any other day. You are not making sense to me.
DHK

 

Nope, I'm asking about you. What is it about you?

 

I have answered you. I am sorry for your lack of comprehension. I am done.

 

What is sad is that you all had to have someone make you believe and repent.

 

What is sad is that you all think you did it for yourselves.

:smilewinkgrin:

 

I'll put you down for "superior intellect" then.

 

I would rather be a puppet in the hands of God than the master of my own fate; a slave to Christ, purchased with His blood from the bonds of Satan and sin, than to live with the delusion of "freewill" as if I could choose between good and evil on my own.

I thank God that He intervened, that He interupted my life and brought me to Himself, by the power of His Spirit, according to the kind intention of His will and the total disregard of mine.

peace to youraise:

 

we did believe ourselves God made us that way