Really, REALLY struggling with calvinism

I have never said mankind doesn't have a choice or doesn't choose. I have stated that mankind make choices based on "human will" (not "freewill") which is marred by sin. The condition of their nature is such they are unable to choose the good (as Satan told Eve she would be able to do when he told the first lie) without the intervention of God.

peace to youraise:

 

I am sorry Canady but that is not a choice for you are removing half of the equation. This debate has about run its course. I have debated with almost everyone on your side and none have convinced me or even been able to use Scriptures and prove your point, to the contrary, you can not answer why the false teachers which are not the "elect" for sure deny they were bought by Jesus when Peter said they were. That Scripture alone shows that chance was given to them but they denied it. I have heard your best arguments and they do not convince me that Calvinism is right, as a matter of fact it is to the contrary. So I think it is time for me to withdraw from this thread for we are starting to go back over the same ground. I respect your veiw and wish you well and may God bless you and yours, but I believe that all men were given a chance to go to Heaven but they must believe that Jesus is the Christ and not by having it shoved down their throat.

 

Hi skypair, Nice to meet you.

I see you are kinda new here. Welcome to BB.

I'll not address a lot of this, for it has aready been covered a few times on the tread. Maybe you will want to read the whole tread latter.

1st..this is not a game. 2nd, man must believe..I agree. No Calvinist would say other wise. the last part....this is funny. your saying.."God will not elect until man 1st elects God" Why in the world would God elect anyone if the election is over?

"aribitrary..NO?" Well...NO. Again..another misunderstanding of Calvinisim. As it turns out we do not have to guess WHY God choose some and not others. The Bible tells us why. Would you like to know why? I don't see your point in the last part of being predestinated. Here is a little tip for you. If you go by the Bible...and the Bible only...Election and predestinated are not the same. Now I know that people use the words as if they are one, but in fact they are not..now are they? That is..if we only go by the Bible.

What does Calvin have to do with this? I always think its so funny that those that bring in Calvin the most are non-Calvinist. That said...ok i give..tells us the "right" definition that you want us all to believe. The good and evil part...i'll not go into that..i have posted that so many times i'm tried of seeing it. If you want..you can post your views and i will reply.

Yeah...like I'm the one that says MAN must choose God before God chooses man. Wrong sky

Lets see.. its really not ME in front of God...God is always. No that is not a typo. GOD IS ALWAYS!! That's it.

God always was..
God always knew...
God is always control..
It is God that always made the choice...david..a nation..paul...tons of others.
God...God...always its about GOD. You want to claim that God cannot DO.... till man PLAYS his part. God is in control and waits on no one, can do as He pleases at.

God does do when He wants to do any dude that He wants to do and waits not for a dude to do what he wishes to do. humm did I say that? I like that. You can use it in your next book...but please quote me.

aaw..yeah

aaaaw no...no boasting. I know of no Calvinist that does. Again..i think you show a lack of understanding Calvinisim.

Sorry, I can't help you sky. I don't save anyone. John Calvin does not save anyone. As it turns out this is Gods salvation. Now I can tell you of the one that does save. This objection betrays a bad heart. It would obligate the CREATOR to the CREATURE. It makes salvation a divine obligation. It denies the right of the potter over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel to honour and another to dishonour. By the same parity of reasoning...... it makes the governor of a sovereign state unjust when he pardons one or more men, unless he empties the prison and turns all the prisoners loose. Our view of election is in harmony with what even the Arminians allow to be proper and just for a human governor. All can see that a governor, by pardoning some men, does not harm others, who are not pardoned. Those who are not pardoned are not in prison because the governor refused them a pardon .....but because they were guilty of a crime against the state. Isn't God to be allowed as much sovereignty as the governor of a state? Salvation, like a pardon, is something that is not deserved. If it were deserved, then God would be unjust if He did not bestow it upon all men.

Salvation is not a matter of justice but of mercy. It wasn't the attribute of justice that led God to provide salvation ....but the attribute of mercy. Justice is simply each man getting what he deserves. Those who go to hell will have nobody to blame but themselves, while those who go to heaven will have nobody to praise but God.

Rom 9:22-23 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Who's Sproul?
YOU SAID..predestination, called, justified, glorified -- if you even comprehend what they mean"...and I guess this is YOUR order. Tis not mine.
lets give it a try shall we..

predestination..destination known. Like buying a ticket to NY City..we know where the plane will land. Salvation is the same in the we know he is driving our salvation plane and we know that heaven is the destination. (how am i doing so far?)

called..kaleo from the root kal...whence call is used with a personal object. In salvation it is used in particularly of Divine call to partake of the blessings of redemption. (are you with me so far?)

justified..well this comes from God the Father. God demands payment for sins. Christ pays the payment with His own Blood on the cross. This then allows God to have our very sins justified. Notice this happened before we were born..before we had a chance to sin. Notice also..God demands payment, gives the payment and is the payment. Now that is a wow!!

But this is only for our sins. We still have a sin nature. Redemption buys us from the sin market and we are now owned by Christ. More on this if you do not understand..just ask.

This is what I call the salvation plan. Notice we do NOTHING!!! This is all done before we are born, before we sin, and it is all given to us. Free!!, as God would have it. Free in that it cost us nothing...but not free in all matters. Christ paid. Christ Paid it all...all in His blood. That is another wow!! lets make it 3 wows!!

glorified...to seem...or in splender. Use to honour praise and worship God.

Not sure why you wanted to knew these things..but I'm sure of one thing. I'm sure your tell me.

Evangelism is to be part of our walk with God...who said it should not be? I said it should not be number one. To worship God is 1st and foremost. And if we worship God we also go tell.

No need to call me sir. My "fallback" is why I do all things. Its all about worshipping God, not saving others. We can save no one. We witness for we are told to witness. We share Gods Word, and it is God that saves, not us.

GOOD..i'm glad to see you come around.

Yes he did.

Now you got it!!

Of course not. When you have time..check out each book that Paul wrote. Look for this phrase...."Paul(_____)Called..."

You have a very bad understanding of Calvinisim ..sir

please read my long lonnnnnng post on missions.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=30714


In Christ..james
[/QUOTE]

 

I believe that too, and I'm a Calvinist.

 

Some can't seem to realize that God changes the heart.
After a while I begin to wonder about some people. How can they really keep denying God's sovereignty?

It doesn't make sense how a Christian could do that.

The unbeliever is expected to hate Grace and God's sovereignty but we seem to have professing Christians on here that do as well

 

Bob,

I like ya as a brother , but we need to start reading the whole context.

 

ITim 2:1-6 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."


Again..Gills..i can't post all verses..its to long. this is verse 6. if you want others..ask and i'll post what I can.



Ver 6. Who gave himself a ransom for all, &c.] What the Mediator gave as a ransom for men is "himself", his body and his soul, which were both made an offering for sin; and his life, which is the result of union between soul and body; his whole human nature as in union with his divine person, and so might be truly said to be himself: this he gave into the hands of men, of justice and of death; and that voluntarily, which shows his great love to his people; and also as a "ransom", or a ransom price for them, antilutron, in their room and stead; to ransom them from the slavery of sin, and damnation by it, from the captivity of Satan, and the bondage of the law, and from the grave, death, hell, ruin, and destruction: and this ransom was given for "all"; not for every individual of mankind, for then all would be delivered, freed, and saved, whereas they are not; or else the ransom price is paid in vain, or God is unjust to receive a sufficient ransom price from Christ, and yet not free the captive, but punish the person for whom he has received satisfaction; neither of which can be said. But the meaning is, either that he gave himself a ransom for many, as in #Mt 20:28 for the Hebrew word lk, to which this answers, signifies sometimes many, a multitude, and sometimes only a part of a multitude, as Kimchi observes {y}: or rather it intends that Christ gave himself a ransom for all sorts of men, for men of every rank and quality, of every state and condition, of every age and sex, and for all sorts of sinners, and for some out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation, for both Jews and Gentiles; which latter may more especially be designed by all, as they are sometimes by the world, and the whole world; and so contains another argument why all sorts of men are to be prayed for, since the same ransom price is given for them; as that for the children of Israel was the same, for the rich as for the poor. We {z}read, that when the people of Israel comforted the high priest upon the death of his wife, or any relation, they used to say to him, Ktrpk wna, "we are thy atonement", expiation, or ransom; that is, as the commentators {a}explain it, by us thou shalt be atoned, for we will be in thy room and stead, with respect to all things that shall come upon thee; but here the High priest and Mediator is the atonement and ransom for the people:

to be testified in due time; or "a testimony in his own times"; that is, the sum and substance of what is before said is the Gospel, which is a testimony concerning the person, office, and grace of Christ, exhibited in the times of the Messiah, or the Gospel dispensation. Some copies read, "the mystery", which is another word often used for the Gospel; for that that is intended, appears by what follows.

 

Bob,

It is not in mans nature to choose God. I have said before it's much like the hungry lion that will not eat hay. Its not that the lion cannot eat hay. He has the power to eat it. The hay would help him stay alive. Yet the lion will lay in hay and die hungry. Its not in his nature to eat hay for he eats, meat. Man will not choose God for he loves his sin to much. Its not his nature to choose God.

If you gave me a choice of tickets to 3 football games. One Ohio State. One Duke. And the other WVU. There is only one choice to me. WVU.

God Calls all to salvation. No one comes. Whosoever will...but no one seeks after God. He was the light unto the world..and the world said no thanks. The fact is.. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors

 

According to you and other Calvinist there is no choice there. You all use double talk to say there is a choice but you take away the part of being able to obey so that only leaves disobeidence and even a child would know that leaves no choice. You all should quit saying we have a choice for you say it with one breath and take it away with the next.

What makes it true because you say it. I prefer my understanding from the Scriptures and God. You say we mention Calvin and the next breath you mention him. Your whole stance has to refer back to Calvin. I could care less what Calvin said. He murdered people. I doubt he went to Heaven.

She believed right?
And so we have the Grace of God which bringeth Salvation which appeareth unto all men. What about that?
After you have heard the word of truth and after you have believed then are ye sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, what about that?
There is an angel flying in Heaven having the everlasting Gospel to preach to them that do dwell on the earth, what about that?
and on and on.
I don't accept your explanations at all James. You put your own spin on them.

Please answer the question of Peter 2: You keep giving your answers on Eph 2 when in fact it is talking about the coming in of the Gentiles and by Grace and not the works of the Law, but you all apply it to all. It talks about circumcisim as works.
I would be interested in your explanation of this scripture if only the elect receive the purchase of Jesus?
2 Peter, chapter 2
1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

why? only way there would be one choice is if you take the other two away then it would not be a choice unless you are saying the "elect" can choose not to serve God. Are you saying that?

Tell me what does these Scriptures have to do with the "elect" it could apply to all men who would believe and I am not saying prechosen either.

Here He says plainly for every man and what do you do, you change it to suit you and say for the church and His people. You are in danger for adding and taking away from the Scriptures. I like the Scripture, I don't like anyone who takes away or adds. No one!

Either say one thing or the other. It don't suit you to stand on the fence and speak both ways.

Again you speak something that you do not support by your belief. You believe even though He calls man can't answer unless he is the elect. You speak He gave Himself a ransom for all but then you say all cannot come because of a sinful nature. All of that is double talk. You would have a child pull its hair out and think they was something ailing you.

 

I try to base what I believe on what the scriptures say. I have addressed the scripture you quoted. You don't accept what I see as the context. That is fine, I am not really trying to convince you of anything other than to look at the whole of scripture to form your beliefs.

You have not addressed the verses I have quoted, but merely ignored them or dismissed them out of hand because they do not conform to what you want to believe. That also is fine. However, you will never come to a fuller appreciation of the Grace of God without that understanding.

No where in scripture does it say that all men were given a chance to go to heaven. Many places say just the opposite.

You go ahead and believe what seems right in your own eyes. I intend to stick to the whole scripture as the basis of what I believe.
peace to you and goodnightraise:

 

Umm..Calvin Murdered people? Do we go and attack people who lived 500 years ago because we can't defend things with the Bible?

Who did he murder and why? Please give an example. That is a very harsh accusation!

You don't think Calvin is in heaven? Well, some may not think you are on your way there but that is not for me to decide.
Calvin gave all of the glory of salvation to God, you keep the choosing to yourself.
You chose God...You choose to do "good" you choose....

There is NONE that seeketh after God, not even you!
If God had non drawn you, you wouldn't have believed.

You keep talking about denying the Lord that bought them then you turn right around and talk about how that it was YOU who, in your OWN will with YOUR faith CHOSE God! You are the one denying the one that bought you when you deny God's choosing in your life.

 

Dale-c

According to history, Calvin at Geneva had a least one person killed (burned at the stake?) for heresy. Whether he repented of that evil, I cannot say. I do not doubt he is in heaven, however.

peace to youraise:

 

You never addressed Peter 2:2 that I can recall.

 

Calvin was a mean man by all accounts I have read of him and if he did murder someone and never repented then the Scripture cuts him out of Heaven, not me.

 

Dale-C
Does the C stand for Calvin?

Anyway everything you just posted is false. You never did tell me if you were "glorified"?
Also, I am beginning to think you are angry because Peter 2:2 plainly teaches there were others besides the elect that were bought by the Lord.

 

" Calvin was a mean man by all accounts . " Yeah , by all the accounts of a subset of humanity . This is another case of "all" not being each and every person .

 

We discussed 2 Peter 2 at length on pages 11,12,13 of this thread. I answered, repeated, and explained in detail what I saw to be the context.

peace to youraise:

 

How do you know they were a subset of hmanity? I bet the guy he burned at the stake with the man's book tied so it would burn in his face thought he was a mean man, what do you think? Amazing how people turn a blind eye to someone they don't want to think bad of.

 

OOPS, double post
peace to youraise:

 

BB , again , the Greek word is despotes . That has reference to God the Father , not Christ . God the Father has ownership and authority and power .

Deuteronomy 32:6 in the TNIV says : Is this the way you repay the Lord , you foolish and unwise people ? Is he not your Father , your Creator , who made you and formed you ?

In the footnote for the word Creator it says : or Father , who bought you .