Really, REALLY struggling with calvinism

Putting the things we've been told all our lives aside isn't always an easy thing... But if you read the scriptures you'll find peace since you know that God is just and true!

Here are a few scriptures that have troubled many, but remember what Jesus said and don't let your heart be troubled!

Romans 9:14-24 NIV
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory- even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?



More scriptures that speak on predestination follow:


Ephesians 1:5 NIV
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-

Romans 8:29 NIV
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30 NIV
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:11 NIV
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Revelation 17:8 NIV
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

Rather then feeling bad about it why not simply tell yourself that God knows what He's doing and that when the time comes for you to understand these things you to will rejoice in what the Lord has done.

Let me just point out that I don't belong to any denomination! I'm a born again Christian - an elect of God. I know who I am and where I'm going. I read the bible and I question everything people tell me. God has been real to me!

Also, it's not the truth that is troubling you but rather all the lies you've heard and have come to believe. The good news however is that God who cannot lie said that you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. So let God be God and rest in what you know to be true.

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May God bless those who seek to know the truth - at all cost! :thumbs:

 

Welcome to the BB...

Why can't the truth be what we have been taught, as you say, "all our lives"? Why would God "predestine" the majority to believe a "lie"?

 

That is a pointless diversion.

Please deal with what the Bible says, not what you think it should say.

AND BTW for many years, that was the traditional view.

Our country was founded by Chirstians who were calvanists.

 

I'll agree with someone who said "put the book down." Forget tulipism, forget arminianism. For a short course in salvation, here is John 3:16-17, John 14:6, Romans 10:8-13. If you need more assurance than that, I can send you a gross of scriptures.:thumbs:

 

What does the scriptures say?

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory- even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

Simply put, it's that He's going to show us His glory, as the one who is just and true. Aren't you looking forward to knowing God's awesome righteousness? Surelly you'll shout with great joy when all these things are made known to you.

It's not rigth that we should question God since He has the right to do whatever He wants. After all, He is Good!

If you asked Him He may very well tell you that you can't possibly understand these things and to simply follow Him.

Hey, His thoughts are not our thoughts nor are His ways our ways.
Something to be grateful for huh!

Oh yea, thanks for the welcome! :thumbs:

 

Which is why he is fair. If he respected persons his judgment would be based on compassion or feelings and Church would be a pitty party. Whoever came with the saddest story must deserve grace. :thumbs:

 

Hello Emily, Paul said "I know whom I have believed, and am pursuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed unto him against that day". Do you know whom you have believed? Before you ask yourself "Am I elect?", first ask yourself "Do I believe?" And after you examine yourself, and find that the answer is "yes! I do believe", then you have no cause to doubt that you are the Lord's child. Your belief is evidence of your election. As you grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord, your calling and election will become more sure, giving you even more confidence as you walk with Him as He leads you in His will.

Your struggle may center on your concept of God's Love. Most of us were taught that God has a all-encompassing, non-judgemental love to all people without exception. When we come to the knowledge of the truth, we learn that God's love is not like that at all. God is angered by sinful men, and will execute judgement on them. This is justice. However, because God is merciful, he has chosen to rescue some number of people for his own glory and purpose from their terrible state. This is called mercy. And those He has chosen to save, he has provided the means by which they will come to Him. This is grace.

Don't be like a someone I know that is so determined to hold on to her notion of a pitiful, weak, non-judging God that she has closed her ears to both scripture and reason.

God is a God of Love, and he holds the right to ravish His bride with His special affection that sweeps her off her feet and into a holy relationship of joy unspeakable and full of glory. Those of us that are a part of that bride can walk in a daily reassurance of His love.

Song 2:16 My beloved is mine, and I am his:

Song 5:2 I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night.

Is there anything more moving than the love that He has for his beloved? And all this knowing that we should bid Him "Look not upon me, because I am black"(Song 1:6), for we are black with sin; and yet he says of us, his bride:

I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me. (Song 7:10)

This is too wonderful to fully know, that God would love us meritless worms in such a way.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

Whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely. that sure is good isn't it?

 

Emily,

Immediately put down that book and begin reading the book of Romans. When you are finished with that, go to the book of Ephesians. As a Calvinist, I encourage you to study the source of the doctrines of grace and God's answers to your questions about his fairness because I fully believe that God's Word is fairly easy to understand once you are guided by the Holy Spirit and you have had your eyes open and have ears to hear and that the Bible speaks for itself. One of the core doctrines of the reformation is sola scriptura, and I affirm that fully. Read and study the Bible. If you don't understand it, consult theologian who affirm the inerrancy of Scripture and see what they say. But in the end, let God be true and every man a liar. I will pray for you as God leads you to his truth.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Yes, whosoever WILL.
The problem is that most WON"T.

God must quicken us, raise us from our dead spiritual state so that we WILL take of the water freely.

BB, are you trying to say that you are somehow smarter than those that do not believe?

 

Yea, God must quicken us if we have the faith he will.

Emily if you read the book of Eph make sure you read it all and consetrate on the fact that chapter 2 is talking about the receiving in of the Gentile nation and it was not by the works of the Law.

After you read Romans please turn over and read James. Then come and ask me.

Well, if you don't have enough to believe thennnn welllllllll I guessssssss sooooooo!

Oh Emily, don't forget that "God so love the whole world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever would believe should not perish but have eternal life.

 

A question was asked.

I didn't get all of this post dine before I hit the button, I will try ti fix it later.

 

Have enough what, sense?

If that is what you meant to say, then isn't it good that you had enough sense to believe in God when all of those other were too stupid.

IF we have faith?
Faith is the gift of God. We don't have it on our own.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

For the record, I am glad God saved me when I DIDN"T have the faith of my own or the sense to come in out of the rain.

 

Salvation is a gift of God and go read the chapter and see that it is talking about the bringing in of the Gentile nation by Grace of God and not the works of the Law.

I tried to make humor after your statement, did I think I was smarter, but apparently did not work out too good, so if you want to talk about yourself feel free but leave me out of it.

unto ever man is dealt the measure of faith.
go ye not house to house for they shall know me from the least to the greatest, didn't leave anyone out.
Except you believe that I am He ye shall die in your sins.
Come unto me all ye ends of the earth and be ye saved.
God so loved the whole world that He gave His only begotten son.
Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.
Time and chance has happened unto all.

 

So let me ask again, do you think of people that do NOT choose as being less wise, in their own strength and human wisdom than you are in and of yourself?
Do you then believe you are smarter than the others?

 

As all calvanists that I have ever know will agree, yes, we must believe. Yes all who believe can take of the water freely.
YEs, whosoever will may come and accept Christ.

YEs, whosoever believeth on Him shall hav eeverlating life.

The whole key is that the natural man CAN'T beleive because he is in darkness. He is dead in sin.
He must be quickened.

And we are no smarter or better than any that do not accept.

God is NO respecter of persons, not even those who are "smarter" than others.

 

Moderator Warning: Sorry... according to your profile you are a non-Baptist posting in a Baptist Only section of the BB. Please restrict your posting to the sections that are open to all Other Christian Denominations.

 

The Bible does say that God is "just"...but is He fair? If He were, then we all should get what we deserve, right? We deserve hell. All of us! If God is fair, then all of us are going to hell.

If you want assurance to your salvation, read 1 John.

 

whoa, there !!

this thread has more than 2 pages already, so I don't know who posted this, but, somebody said somewhere in this thread:

the implication of this statement is that God (in this case the fireman) put the unelect in that situation of inability to come to God. That it was not their choice.
This is both untrue and unscriptural.
God was not the one who sinned. Man was the one who sinned. God gave to man all the necessary warning for the consequence of his choice.
And Adam, the federal head of man, chose to disobey, therefore his perfection was marred, and that imperfection passed on to all men.
From then on, the will of man is bound to his fallen nature.

Adam chose the words of Satan over the words of God. Paul put it clearly in Romans :

So you see, all unregenerate men are under the same condemnation that Adam them in because of his transgression.

It is not God that put unregenerate man where he is, unregenerate man is the way he is because of Adam's transgression. As Paul said:

The poster talks as if the sinfulness of man is God's fault, as if God were some puppet master pulling strings in a puppet play, and the inability of man to make the right choice, to submit himself to the will and sovereignty of God over him, was God's fault ! Banish the thought !!