Really, REALLY struggling with calvinism

Emily, I bet all this back and forth arguing has really straightened you out, right? :laugh:

Asking a question like you did here (which of course there is nothing wrong with) is like throwing raw meat into a pool full of Piranhas!

My suggestion is to take a break from the Baptist Board; read your Bible, pray, and talk to you pastor. Later, when the time is right come back to the fray here. Believe me, it will still be going strong.

 

Perhaps some of the most wise words I've read anywhere where C vs A theology is concerned!! We must remember that both "camps" (C AND A) are a little bit less than infallable, inerrant, and inspired!! I believe that if both men(C & A) knew how much we "carry on" about what they wrote--both would be rollin' over in their graves!!!!

Blackbird

PS--thanks, Bro. Tom for your input in this thread!!

 

I agree blackbird. However, you said, "I believe that if both men(C & A) knew how much we "carry on" about what they wrote--both would be rollin' over in their graves!!!!"

You know, as well as the rest of us, that the "carrying on" is not over what John Calvin said .... It is about what God said. Here is a question: What God said is... a) very important b) slightly important c) not important.

Why do people get passionate about God's Word? Why do people debate these items? Why is all this important? Many churches have answered these questions by "avoiding them" or saying that doctrine is not important, or by saying "lets just love one another." I know that you do not fall into this camp. Yes, doctrine is important! Yes, "churches" are moving toward open theism (or a form thereof). Yes, "churches" are moving toward the sovereignty of man when it comes to salvation. That is why reformation must continue.

Calvinism is a label placed to identify a point of view. Doctrines of Grace, Sovereign Grace, Sovereignty of God, Biblical Theology arre synonyms (but are longer and harder to spell )

 

Have you discussed this with your husband? What has your husband said about this? Keep praying and ask God to direct you and show you.

 

Your pastor is a wise man...:thumbs:

 

If God gave His Son for you then how could He not love you?

Everyone ought to be struggling with these issues, by the way. This is not unique to Calvinism. Think about this - if the free willers are correct, then God could "force" everyone to be saved but instead He would rather let people freely choose Hell. How is that loving?

 

The one thing that most seem to leave out is that God in His all knowing wisdom, has to have predestined all things according to His will, if He causes all things to happen for the good of those who love Him. The breeze that causes a leaf to flutter is as planned and predestined so that God is able to uphold all His creation. It is hard to understand how He can make all things work according to His will and purpose, but that is exactly what the Bible says. He is intimately involved in all His creation. Your hairs are numbered and a sparrow doesn't fall that He doesn't know about. Don't confuse predestination with foreknowledge. Why would God look down the corridor of time to see what man would do, then predestine that? Why would He have to predestine anything if He saw what man was already going to do? Also remember that God is all knowing, He has nothing to learn from man or what men will do. Hang in there, don't forget to pray, He will give you an answer in His time.

 

Emily,

I agree with your pastor. How can the both truths exist? It does not negate the sovereignty of God to believe that in that sovereignty He chose to make man with the ability to chose. There are those who think that if we can actually chose God somehow is less sovereign, not so. Our God given, God design ability to respond to Him does not take away any of His sovereignty. Do I believe God is sovereign? Totally. Do I believe that a person has the actual ability to respond to God? Certainly. Do I believe this puts the onus on man rather than God? Negative. If God made us with this ability, then it is His will that is always being accomplished, even if in our finite minds we have trouble completely understanding how it all works.

There's my 2 1/2 cents worth.

Bro Tony

 

Bro. Tony,

You are confusing ability with free will. They are not the same.

 

I have the ability to exercise my free will that God sovereignly gave me according to his foreknowledge.
DHK

 

Of course you do. You are free to do whatever you want. But as long as you are dead in your sins why would you ever want to believe?

 

I was once dead in my sins and someone once asked me if I was sure about going to Heaven. When I answered no, he responded that I could know for sure, and offered to show me through the Bible how I could know for sure that my sins could be forgiven and I could have eternal life. I allowed him to do so.
Why would I pass up a chance to do so, even if I was dead in my sins?
DHK

 

The only problem with that statement is that I can't find free will in the Bible.

If someone could kindly show me where in the Bible we find that our will is free and unencumbered by our hearts I would appreciate it.

 

Ezra, chapter 1

"1": Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

"2": Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

"3": Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.

"4": And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
Ezra, chapter 3
"5": And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

Ezra, chapter 7
"13": I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Deuteronomy, chapter 12
"6": And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

Deuteronomy, chapter 23
"23": That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

Leviticus, chapter 22
"18": Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering
Leviticus, chapter 23
"38": Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.
Numbers, chapter 29
"39": These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.
2 Chronicles, chapter 31
"14": And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, was over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.
Psalms, psalm 119
"108": Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

 

Wisdom of Solomon (Apocrypha), chapter 6
"3": For power is given you of the Lord, and sovereignty from the Highest, who shall try your works, and search out your counsels.

One time

 

Because those dead in their sins don't want to give up their sins.

A lot of people don't know for sure about going to Heaven and don't want to find out. What is the difference between you and them? Why did you want to know when so many others don't?

 

Bro. Bob,

Does this mean that there is neither sovereignty nor free will in the New Testament? I did not know that. Interesting.

 

I can't find it if it is.