Really, REALLY struggling with calvinism

Repentance is change of attitude toward God. My attitude toward God changed from a life of rebellion to one of obedience. I never said I was perfectly sinless, just as you admitted you had not attained sinless perfection. So why the semantics? As I endeavour to obey my earthly father so I endeavour to obey my Heavenly Father. That doesn't mean that I will not fail. And it does not take me out of the category of being a sinner. I was born a sinner and will die a sinner. If you fail to admit that fact for yourself you have a problem with pride.
Neither did I say I was "holding on to my sins." I said that I was still a sinner," even as the hymn writer wrote, "Only a sinner saved by grace."

I gave you my testimony. What more do you want?

Does that not answer your question?
DHK

 

Choice

Romans:3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. So what choice is this person going to make. and then why do some seek and find him. As it says in Philippians 2:12 work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. well why do they work it out in :13 For it is GOD which Worketh IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO of your... no. of his good pleasure. Romans 9:16 so then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. And if he showeth mery then you willeth and you will runneth. And I am an old regular Baptist as well and like another old regular in the Mt. valley Asso. preached about how he watched people go christmas tree shopping and how they went up and down checking and looking the trees over to find the one they wanted and finally chose one. and thats how it is with man he wants to choose and not let God have a chose in the matter. I know if left up to me i would seek the things still of the world but like the roman soilder said never a man spake like this man. that is the difference. God has been good to me and i don't deserve it therefore I love christ jesus because he is truley my savior and i am not my own savior just my own curse. Jeremiah 17:5 Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm and whose heart departeth from the Lord. :7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.

 

Hebrews, chapter 2

"9": But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

 

1 Timothy, chapter 5
"8": But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
(If the faith was put in him by God then how could he deny the faith?)

"9": Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,

"10": Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

"11": But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;

"12": Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.


(Unless you believe in a fall, they cast off a faith of some kind, must of not been the saving faith.)


Luke, chapter 17
12": And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:

"13": And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.

"14": And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

"15": And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,

"16": And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.

"17": And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?

"18": There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

"19": And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

(Unless you believe in a fall this man had faith before Salvation. )

Mark, chapter 5
"28": For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

"29": And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.

"30": And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

"31": And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?

"32": And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.

"33": But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

"34": And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.


(She had faith enough to move out and touch Jesus’s garment and she was not saved until she received the virtue.)


James, chapter 2
14": What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (This man said he had faith but it was obvious that he did not because he had no works)
17": Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
18": Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works

Seems to me if you don’t have any works you have a dead faith, if you believe the children of God can have a dead faith then you believe in a fall again.


Ephesians, chapter 2
"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"10": For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not of works, lest any man should boast. This entire chapter is talking about the bringing in of the Gentile nation and the breaking down the wall of partition so the Gentiles also could have a right to the tree of life and it was a free gift of God and not of works of the Law such as circumcism.



(good works is what God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.)

 

So now I have a problem with pride. You don't know me, why are you making these assumptions about me? I never said I was not a sinner.

The Christian life is a life of constant repentance, a constant turning to God. As a believer, when we turn it is the power of God that fuels our turning. What was is that fueled your very first turning?

Honestly, no. Why did you allow him to do so when most people would not allow him to do so? Most people do pass up that chance, so why didn't you?

 

Who are you to say God could not create us subject to vanity but not willingly but give us a choice which would we would choose, good or evil. Who art thou oh man who would judge another mans servant?

 

That doesn't say he purchased all men, if that were true that he purchased all men then all would be in heaven.

 

What does it say then? Maybe you are much smarter than I?
It, the Scripture just in case you don't understand, say He tasted death for every man. Now how did He do that. I think He died on the cross to taste death for every man and what happened when He died. I think He shed His blood. Now if you can make something else out of the Scripture go for it.

 

Who are you talking to, Bro. Bob? I haven't seen where anyone said that God could not do anything. AFAIK, we're only talking about what God has or has not done.

 

Does "tasted death" = "purchased"? I'm not sure that it does, although you might surprise me.

Then there's the whole "every man" debate - is it every single man who ever lived, or is it "all of us", or is it something else?

I happen to think that in the death of Christ there was potential purchase (whosoever believes will be saved) and there was actual purchase ("Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us"). Usually non-Calvinists talk about the potential purchase while Calvinists talk about the actual purchase as well. I think both are true, and I think Christ is potentially the Savior (Redeemer) of all if they would only believe, and I think that Christ is actually the Savior (Redeemer) of only those who do believe.

 

I happen to believe that a man must believe also to receive the blood. But the shed blood is already there for Jesus is not going to die again. If he had not already purchased every man then every time someone believed He would have to shed some more blood. You don't believe that do you?
Forgive me if I was a little sharp. It was not you that stirred me up.

How could there be potential purchase, He either did or He didn't.
1 Timothy, chapter 2



"1": I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

"2": For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

"3": For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

"4": Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

"5": For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

"6": Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

 

I didn't think you were too sharp, and no, I don't think Jesus has to shed more blood. Of course not. I'm really not sure why you would ask that.

The reason for the distinction between "potential" redemption and "actual" redemption is that redemption is something that occurred on the cross, as Paul told the Ephesians, and yet when people believe they go from being "unredeemed" (or "lost") to "redeemed". That's why I say that Christ "potentially" redeemed every single person, if only they would believe, but some will not. Christ "actually" redeemed all of those who would believe only, and "all of those who would believe" = "the elect".

 

Whatever;
Your words are saying that he paid the price to redeem all but only those that believe will receive that. I agree but that does not lessen the fact that he paid the price for all!

 

That's not quite what I'm saying, Bro. Bob. I believe that all of the redeemed will be saved. I do not believe that any of the redeemed will be lost. I also believe that those who are not saved cannot say that they had no opportunity for salvation.

 

The writer of Hebrews had a different reason for emphasizing the suffering of Christ. That reason is much different than Paul's when he spoke to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20, or John's in the Revelation.

By this scripture we know Christ tasted death for every man. By the scripture I quoted, we know that Christ purchased with His blood specific people, who make up His church. They are two, different scripture verses, that are saying two different (non conflicting) things to make two different points.

Going back to the point I was making earlier about a slave doing the will of his master and having no will of his own. It is clear from several scripture texts that the analogy of Christ purchasing His people (the elect) from the slavery of sin, by His shed blood, is biblically sound.

Nothing you have posted changes that at all.

peace to youraise:

 

Brother Bob I think this statement is not to bad i could go along with this. Look here how I see it. Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. Hebrew 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. So this would be the non-elect so then here the believeing elect Roman 3:2 Even the righteousness of God which is by the faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe. for there is no difference: so we are justified by his faith and that is unto all and upon all. all what all that believe so no wonder its by Grace through Faith.. (who faith? the faith of christ ) and that not of your self. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man ia not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. ( See he rose on the 3rd day for our justification so if you have his life then you have his faith. I John 5:1 whosoever believeth that jesus is the Christ is ....gonna be .... No.. is born of GOD even we have believed in Jesus Christ, (not in to but already in because its a work of God and because we are his workmanship created in Christ) that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. So who so ever believes is evidence that you are one of the every man that he tasted death for. every one the father gives him he shall lose none but raise it up the last day.

 

ooops my mistake

My mistake I thought that was brother Bob's statement but i see now it was whatevers statement

 

You still have not explained how He could taste death for every man and not shed His blood for every man? When He tasted death He died didn't He?

2 Peter, chapter 2

1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4:

 

Bob, please answer one question for me. When we get saved, it the faith our own or is it, that is the faith itself a gift of God?

 

1 Peter, chapter 1
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6: Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


Don't change the subject. How can Jesus "taste death for every man" and not "shed His blood"?

2 Corinthians, chapter 5
: For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14: For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.



Hebrews, chapter 10
9: Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10: By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.