Really, REALLY struggling with calvinism

Gal: 2 and Eph: 2 is talking about the coming in of the Gentile nation by the Grace of God and not the works of the Law. Paul is stressing that "works of the Law will not save you."

 

The reason I can say that He tasted death for every man, but shed His blood for specific people, i.e. the church (or elect) is because that is how scripture says it.

The author of Hebrews is emphasizing the sufferings of Christ and how that relates to His role as the author of our salvation and our High Priest before God.

Paul, in Acts 20, is emphasizing a specific people (the church) that has been bought by His blood. The Rev. verses emphasize the same.

Concerning 2 Peter 2, it is clear that Peter is pointing out the hypocrisy of the false prophets, who on the one hand claim/profess to be Christians, but then deny Jesus in some way. They are professing Christians because Peter says in 2:1 that they arose from among themselves. It is equally clear that Peter doesn't consider them to be genuine Christians because he says their destruction is sure. (v.3-4)

peace to youraise:

 

I am not disagreeing with you that He shed His blood for the church, I know He did, but that still does not say that when He did so that He did not taste death for every man by the shedding of His blood. The reason He shed His blood for the Church is because of their belief. All of the church was not yet when the Scripture was written so those that have come after did He shed blood again or was it already shed? And also, was "shed" a tasteing of death for all men if they would believe? Forget Calvinism for a moment and just stick with Scriptures.

Peter 2:1

1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


This supports my veiw for these false teachers, Apostle Peter said they would deny that they were purchased by His blood.

I don't think you still are answering the question of How can He taste death without shedding blood?

 

I keep trying to point out to you the two scripture verses have two different purposes. You are trying to take the Hebrews verse, which emphasized His suffering an experience to which all men can relate, and combine it to the Acts 20 or Rev. verses, which have connotations of Christ shedding His blood in order to purchase a specific people from the slavery of sin.....

...and say that would mean Christ purchased all men with His blood and "that would mean everyone is saved" or words to that effect.

The "puchase from slavery" language is quite clear in several places of scripture, including Hebrews 2:15. There is an obvious transaction taking place for these specific people.

My primary concern in my posts here is to deal with the "purchase from slavery" language, which is clear. I really have no desire to re-argue the "all means all" debate, which will go on until the Lord returns and shuts all of our mouths.
peace to youraise:

 

We were getting along so good too.

He only shed His blood once and the other Scripture tells one thing it did and the one I refer tells the other but both were done same time and when belief come into it the one becomes the other. I don't see why you can't take the whole instead of cherry pickin to prove your point. I am willing to take Acts and Rev. and include it with "tasted death for all men" as being all one time dying on the cross.

I am not arguing with you and if you think so then just don't reply.

 

The Lord purchased only those who He purchased . He bought only those He bought -- none else . It is simple . The Church which he bought with His own blood . The Church does not mean : everyone including the ones for whom He did not die .

 

Then you are denying the Scripture for it says He tasted death for every man.

Even this Scripture says he purchased those who were false teachers.

Peter 2:1

1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

By doing so, you are de-emphasizing a very important concept in our salvation, that Christ purchased the elect church with His blood, which has been emphasized by the Holy Spirit in scripture, and therefore we should strive to understand fully.

peace to youraise:

 

I am de-emphasizing a point of Calvinism but emphasizing that God so loved the whole world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ever think about Jesus standing as a slain Lamb from the foundation of the world?

 

Bro. Bob,

You are also emphasizing the non-Calvinist belief that the death of Christ was not enough to save those whom He actually bought with His blood.

 

He never has forced His blood on anyone. Our Sovereign God made us so we could choose goor or evil, Christ or the devil. We can't save ourselves but we can choose to believe in Christ and in doing so we receive the blood applied to our souls. Tell me something. You are referring to the "elect" Well all of the "elect" had not even been born when that Scripture was written so where was the blood for them until they come along and those who are yet to come? Therefore those who come to belief the blood is there for them.

It is not me it is the Scripture. Read the following real carefully please?
Peter 2:1

1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

You answered your own question, Bro. Bob, since the elect are those who come to belief. Besides, nobody (except you) said anything about "force".

 

The problem is those who believe become the "elect". Also, time and chance has happened unto all. It not His will that any should perish but that all come to repentance.

 

Of course I have. And I have strived to understand scripture for many years before I ever heard of "Calvinism".

John 3:16, which you quoted, for instance. Surely you can see that Jesus has already defined the "whosoever will" as those on whom the Spirit works. 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." He is referring to those who are "born again" from v. 3. The word for spirit and wind are the same in Greek. The word "wishes" has the definition of a deliberate act of the will. The Holy Spirit, by a deliberate act of the will, causes people to be born again. They are the "whosoever" of 3:16.

This is a concept that was first stated in John 1:13 where it states that those that have been given the right to become the children of God..."who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God". The grammar is such that "but by the will of God" is more accurate.

Can you see the obvious connection between "born of God" and "born again by the will of the Spirit".

Over and over, the scripture speaks of God's will being done in the salvation of men. No where does scripture say man has "freewill".

peace to youraise:

 

They choose themselves? No, the elect all come to believe, as appointed by God, just as Scripture says.

 

I think whatever; we have a different opinion what the elect is but that still does not do away with the fact that He tasted death for every man.
And it does not do away with the fact of the following where even false teachers were purchased by His blood.
Peter 2:1

1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

Whole world mean whole world, whosoever mean whosoever. It like my signature; whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.

Please explain the Scripture you first gave me of Peter 2:1 where even the false teachers were purchased by the blood of the Lamb? I am just taking a Scripture that you gave.

whatever;
Except you believe that I am He you shall die in your sins and where I am you cannot come.

 

I still say that's "potential" purchase and not "actual" purchase. But I guess when we start repeating ourselves again then we probably ought to find something else to talk about, huh?

 

I've never disagreed with that.
:thumbs:

 

whatever;
I have great respect for you and Canady so can you answer the question, where he said the false teachers were purchased by Jesus;

Peter 2:1

1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.