Really, REALLY struggling with calvinism

You know potential purchase is not too bad at least the blood is there in case they do believe. That is what you are saying is it not whatever?

 

Bro. Bob,

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

 

I already answered you. Didn't you read my post? Here it is again.

"Concerning 2 Peter 2, it is clear that Peter is pointing out the hypocrisy of the false prophets, who on the one hand claim/profess to be Christians, but then deny Jesus in some way. They are professing Christians because Peter says in 2:1 that they arose from among themselves. It is equally clear that Peter doesn't consider them to be genuine Christians because he says their destruction is sure. (v.3-4)"

Concerning John 3:16; "Whole world" is not in the text; "world" and "whosoever" is. As with every text of scripture, the words have meaning in the context in which they were written. You haven't addressed the context of John 3:16 which I clearly pointed out to you. Could that be because the context doesn't support what you keep saying? Yes, that must be why you won't address the context.
peace to youraise:

 

Good, thank you,
I think you are a good debater and a civil one. Sometimes I may sound harsh but I don't mean to be.

 

Well, I try. Thanks for that, and I don't think you've been too harsh.

 

Canady;
No, I thought I answered it.

John, chapter 3

15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

It says "world" and it also says "whosoever" that takes in everyone who has ever been born. Now, I think I answered it plain enough. Do you notice that it says "believeth" and that is what I have said all along.

Ok, you say they are not the elect but if you read you will also see where they were bought by Jesus so this is a sure example where those not the "elect" were bought by Jesus.

 

You can't understand John 3:15-17 correctly, without understanding John 3:1-14, and John 3:18-21, and put them with the other passages in John which speak to this issue, such as John 1:13.

In the 2 Peter 2 passage, Peter is pointing out the hypocrisy of the false teachers in proclaiming Christ and then denying something essential about Jesus (which, a true Christain would not have done because a true Christian would have understood that they had been "bought" by Jesus). He is demonstrating their hypocrisy with their own words. He is not saying that all men have been "bought" by Jesus.

peace to youraise:

 

He definately said they were bought by Jesus and were denying it. It is in black and white Canady, come on!!!

 

It is clear they were "professors" of Christianity; Part of professing Christianity is the understanding (at least in Peter's day) that Christ had purchased them with His blood. That is why Peter is so outraged by what they were doing.

You must see that Peter is pointing out the hypocrisy of professing Christ as Master, proclaiming Him as having bought them with his blood, and then denying Him in some way. That is why Peter says their distruction is "swift" and "from long ago".

I have enjoyed our discussion. May God keep you this night.
peace to youraise:

 

No, they were denying they were bought by Jesus. It was Peter saying they were bought by Jesus.

 

Hebrews, chapter 2
"9": But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 Timothy, chapter 2
"1": I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

"2": For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

"3": For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

"4": Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

"5": For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

"6": Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

2 Peter, chapter 2
1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4:

 

Gordon Clark authored " New Heavens , New Earth : A Commentary On First And Second Peter " . He deals with 2 Peter 2:1 .

... the false teachers "deny the Master who bought them . " ... there is no mention of Christ's blood , his death , or resurrection , as is most common in the New Testament passages that speak of Christ's buying us or redeeming us .(p.199)

...Kurios is a proper title for Christ , despotes [ on the other hand ] , indicating power and ownership but without connotations of redemption , more properly belongs to the Father . ( p.200 )

First Peter is explicitly addressed to Jews . Since the author was the apostle to the Jews , it is very probable that 2 Peter was also addressed to the Jews . To them purchase and redemption had for centuries been connected with their salvation from Egypt . Therefore the line of thought would not have seemed at all unfamiliar to them . Peter was saying : God rescued you from Egypt ; do you therefore repay him with heresy and immorality ? ( 201,202)

 

God give to ever man a measure of faith it is up to us to add to, ok.

 

no mention of the blood but there is mention of them denying being bought by Jesus and that is the only thing I have ever read where He bought men. Also, it don't matter if it were Jews or others they were not the "elect", ok and they were false teachers and denied they had been bought by Jesus. I know it don't sit well with you all but its there. If you come up with a better answer I am here. Sometimes you all make me study real hard and a few time I turn it back but not often for you all are very very good. Also, it don't say God it says Jesus. We would have to stretch it to get away from that. We also have to suppose to say it was talking to the Jews.

 

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. We help one another by makeing one another search the scriptures and consider one another and let God give us understanding. As long as we can do it in love. God bless you brother Bob.........brother Jeremy

 

Either you quote an unfounded opinion, or you display a lack of experience in sharing the gospel with others. Have you ever knocked on doors? Do you do much evangelism? Why do you assert that most people would not allow a person to share the gospel with them, to lead them to the Lord? How do you think that millions of others got saved? How did D.L. Moody get saved? What about Billy Sunday? One could make a list of thousands of Christian leaders. Why do people allow others to lead them to the Lord? Is this a problem for you?
DHK

 

DHK,

I'm not sure why you'd rather put me down than just answer the question.

When I was lost many times I said "no". One time I said "yes". That's probably the case with most people. What is it that causes the "no" to become "yes"?

 

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Roman 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things. So this is not mans work but Gods.
I Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. So the blood was for those he forknew.
Now what did man do
2 Timothy 2:10 Paul said -- Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, (not to make them the elect for God has already done that) that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus (and it said also obtain) with eternal glory.

I believe Gods part is eternal and mans part is here in time for those god has done a work already in by his Spirit....

 

I am not putting you down. I have answered your question. Your problem is that you do not accept my answer. If you don't believe me that is your problem. In effect you infer that I am lying. However, I will restate my testimony for you in more detail and more specifically so you will understand.
First realize that not everyone is the same. You stated:

That is not the case with me; thus you are asking a moot question.
I was a Catholic for 20 years. In the Catholic Church I never once heard the gospel. The first time I heard the gospel was on the campus of the university by a young man who asked me two or three questions (one of which was if I was sure about going to heaven), and then I allowed him to show me the plan of salvation out of the Bible. Why? That is the first time in my life that I had ever heard the gospel. Why would I say no to the offer of forgiveness of sins and the promise of the gift of eternal life--something that the RCC could not guarantee me, when the Bible did? At that point I decided to believe the Bible over the RCC. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. I heard; I believed. It was my choice to believe.
Now if that doesn't fit your theological paradigm, I am sorry. But that is my testimony. I chose to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. It was the first time I had ever heard the gospel. The gospel had the answer to forgiveness of sins and eternal; not the RCC, and I saw that plainly on that day.
DHK

 

Perhaps you could explain how this is not a put down:

Do most people really believe when you knock on their door? Do most of those to whom you witness believe? If they do then quit talking to me and start talking to my neighbors. They need you more than I do.

And you have yet to answer my question. You say that you saw the answer plainly the first time you heard the gospel. I did not. What made the difference between your response the first time you heard the gospel and my response the first time I heard the gospel? Why did you choose to believe that first time when I (and so many others) refused to believe that first time?