Really, REALLY struggling with calvinism

What a long a circuitous route this thread has taken....

One of the benefits of being a Baptist is that we beieve in the priesthood of the believer, so we can, under the leadership and guidance of the Holy Spirit, determine for ourselves what the Bible teaches

So, Emily, let me go back to what I suggested originally, pick up the Bible, determine what the Bible teaches for yourself. Some questions do not have an answer this side of heaven.

 

emily, bob, dalec,

Here's the KEY, if you will, to understanding predestination. God foreknows who will BELIEVE (not have faith because faith is "given" by God as part of the "predestination package*") and them who He foreknows (will believe), He THEN predestinates to *faith, eternal life, indwelling Spirit, good works, spiritual gifts, etc. I mean, the list seems endless doesn't it! PTL! And God preplans from etenity past to bestow these things of foreknown BELIEVERS.

So why don't your friends get saved? They don't believe. EVERYONE'S eyes could be opened by the Spirit that lives and speaks through you and that indwells the Word of God. Every day people believe both good things and bad things. Yeah, by eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve were given the ability to "know good and evil." The knowledge of good was always there! What does believing require? Hearing.

Is that some special skill God gives to the elect? How could it be? That would give one person more 'merit' than another, wouldn't it? Well, I'm elect so I could hear but you couldn't. How foolish does that sound?

Anyway, emily, you'll find as you study Calvinism (if you do) that their paradigm cannot answer the very question you so want to know -- how does God choose those He elects? The Bible is very specific but Calvinists don't accept "belief" or anything on our part as a precondition for salvation. Nor do they have the authority to invite people to receive Christ as Savior. That would be endorsing "choice" and "works" and would not in any case establish that God had elected them. Like you said, it's a vicious circle!

skypair

 

...but if you were one of the "elect" chosen from the foundation of the world, why would you EVER say no if God's grace is so irresistable to the "elect"?

 

What? Just because you don't like onions you are forbidden from ordering them?

 

well the onions are there but their nature doesn't like them so they will not order them.

their needs to be a new nature within the fallen man. that is the only way he can deny himself and follow Christ or order and eat the onions.

John 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

So Christ sayeth come and some draw back to perdition and those that come it was a work done in them of the Father.

Like when Christ asked Peter who do you say that I am and he said the Son of God. and Christ said blessed art thou Peter for flesh and blood hath not revealed it but my Father which is in heaven. Like the preaching of the Gospel. in I Cor.1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
2 Timothy 1:9-10 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, (God did this not man) not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

You see Christ did the work not the preaching of the Gospel but the Gospel revealed what Christ had done already in you. Gospel didn't give immortality and life but revealed it in you. brought it to light. This may save you not in an eternal sense but in time as a child of God already born of the Spirit before hand, in time from the lies and snares of the devil.
(not advocating Vital Eternal Union. but Forknowledge of God on what he would do in time; he Elected to save a people for his own purpose.)

 

No, I am not forbidden, I just don't because I hate the taste of them.

Unbelievers are the same way.
They hate the gospel and the God of that gospel and so they will not believe until their heart changes, or in this case, their "tastes" so to speak.

This is a complete misrepresentation of the doctrines of grace.

Take that up with C.H Spurgeon who was a Calvanist. He was once asked why we witness to the ones who weren't elect, after all, why waste out time.

To this he answered (and I paraphrase) Great idea! You tell me who the elect are and I will only preach to them!
Of course no one knows the mind of God or who he has chosen, we are to preach to all people of all nations and let God do the saving.

No Calvanist that I have ever known thought belief was unnecessary. Quite the contrary!

This part was really good so I don't know what happened. That is what all of the Calvinists that I know believe (and what I believe as well)
That said, I have never really known any hyper Calvinists that don't believe in witnessing to the lost but I have heard that they are out there.

 

Election is not salvation but is unto salvation.

***"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (elect) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded" (Rom. 11:7).
***"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation" (2 Thess. 2:13).

If the elect obtain salvation, and if election is to salvation, election must precede salvation. Men are saved when they believe on Christ not when they are elected. Bush was not president when he was elected, but when he was inaugurated. There was not only an election to, but an induction into the office. God's elect are inducted into the position of saintship by the effectual call, (the quickening work of the Holy Spirit) through which they become believers in the Gospel.

***2 Thess 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

That is what I have been trying to say but no one wants to believe it.

 

I know this has been covered in the past on the BB, but I am always surprised what some post. Much of what is posted is full Pelagianism. What do I mean by that? We would have to take the debate all the way back to the beginning to understand. Where did Calvinism come from and what is the other view?

Well...as you may know...on one side we had, Augustinianism completed in Calvinism. 2nd.... we had, Pelagianism completed in Socinianism. Then.... 3rd. along came Arminianism ..... between these as the system of compromises and is developed Semipelagianism. Those that claim to be in the middle of Calvinism and Arminianism on this board, in fact seem to be on the other side of Arminiamism and more toward Pelagianism.

Arminianism is much more Calvinist then what is posted on this board. In fact one great Calvinist John Gill called Arminianism the lower end of Calvinisim. At times, I'm not sure just what SOME poster believe.

 

Not always true. I used to hate them when I was younger. Out of the blue one day I decided to try them. They're still not my favorite today, but I will eat them occasionally.

 

Tastes change...then what?

 

So what you are saying is there is no power in the Gospel, God's Word.

 

Tastes change but the heart must change in order to believe. Only God can change the heart.

 

...and how is that accomplished?

 

I wouldn't give you 2 cents for a religion that was not heart felt!

 

Well, as for me, I wouldn't give 2¢ for any religion that isn't the religion of the one true and living God.

I have seen some humanists that seem pretty "heart felt"

Last I checked, God did it.

 

That's not an answer. I asked HOW...

 

How did he create the world?

Do you not believe that God is powerful enough to change the heart of a mere man?