Reason for Obama Victory is Mirrored Here

[hillclimber1]

I disagree with that. This is the mindset of today and is why we have compromise both in our politics and churches and both are in serious trouble. If two evils were put to a vote in a church meeting I would not pick the one which I felt was less evil. Someone refraining from the vote is a message that both are evil, not that they support one over the other. To accuse someone of helping in evil when they refrain because of nothing but evil is evil in itself. The degree of that evil is, is not the issue, but will we compromise and support evil is. So for those whose convictions are that both candidates are evil and want to stand by their convictions not to vote I think it is evil to admonish them.

Based on this, you would allow officials to be elected by non-believers only.. You could not vote.. Your religious views would not be represented.. While I appreciate your sensitivity to the "lessor of the two" it is a fair statement in this day, and particularly this election..

 

[freeatlast]

Based on this, you would allow officials to be elected by non-believers only.. You could not vote.. Your religious views would not be represented.. While I appreciate your sensitivity to the "lessor of the two" it is a fair statement in this day, and particularly this election..

Let’s be honest here. There is not enough believers to sway ANY election in this country or any country in the world. I seriously doubt that there are actually 5% of the people who are true Christians in this nation and certainly not 5% conservitives. So I think your argument is mute on that front, but there is a bigger issue.

That being said it always boils down to scripture for a real believer or it should. If my brother is offended by meat I will eat no meat. That means in this case, and we are to do all we do as unto the Lord, and if my brother has convictions that voting for "the lessor of two evils" is wrong then I must make sure I do not put a stumbling block into his way and cause him to go against his/her conscience by admonishing him, less I become satan’s advocate.
The bottom line is there is something more important then who we vote for or if at all and that is conscience before the Lord. It would be better for this country to fall and become a total dictatorship then to push someone into violating their conscience.

 

[hillclimber1]

Let’s be honest here. There is not enough believers to sway ANY election in this country or any country in the world. I seriously doubt that there are actually 5% of the people who are true Christians in this nation and certainly not 5% conservitives. So I think your argument is mute on that front, but there is a bigger issue.

I'm including all those that "call themselves" Christians, and that vote conservatively.. And yes, they can and do decide many elections.. Why the effort to nullify this segment??

That being said it always boils down to scripture for a real believer. If my brother is offended by meat I will eat no meat. That means in this case, and we are to do all we do as unto the Lord, and if my brother has convictions that voting for "the lessor of two evils" is wrong then I must make sure I do not put a stumbling block into his way and cause him to go against his/her conscience by admonishing him less I become satan’s advocate.

Then don't vote.. And you'll have to excuse me, or not, because I have to vote against BO.. And because you view yourself as a stumbler, and weaker in the faith, perhaps I should tell you I won't vote.. But that would be untrue..

The bottom line is there is something more important then who we vote for or if at all and that is conscience before the Lord. It would be better for this country to fall and become a total dictatorship then to push someone into violating their conscience.

OK, I see your point.. Hope that works out for you..

My conscience before the Lord is constantly being evaluated, but voting for Romney hasn't produced that "twinged" conscience.. Or: My conscience is "good to go" in voting for Romney.. I suspect I'll have a ton of legitimate complaints in a year or two, but I'll never regret my vote..

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Since this is a Christian board, unless there is sin involved, both sides need to accept the legitimacy of the other point of view.

No views are truly changed if it is done through guilt tripping or bullying.

Once we depersonalise the issue we can debate the pros and cons of each n

 

[freeatlast]

I'm including all those that "call themselves" Christians, and that vote conservatively.. And yes, they can and do decide many elections.. Why the effort to nullify this segment??



Then don't vote.. And you'll have to excuse me, or not, because I have to vote against BO.. And because you view yourself as a stumbler, and weaker in the faith, perhaps I should tell you I won't vote.. But that would be untrue..



OK, I see your point.. Hope that works out for you..

My conscience before the Lord is constantly being evaluated, but voting for Romney hasn't produced that "twinged" conscience.. Or: My conscience is "good to go" in voting for Romney.. I suspect I'll have a ton of legitimate complaints in a year or two, but I'll never regret my vote..

No one has told you not to vote.

 

[LadyEagle]

Well, I go into the voting booth with a curtain pulled around me and no one can see how I vote, so how would that be a stumbling block? No one around me knows who I vote for or if I vote for any candidate or a straight ticket or just vote for the locals.

I think it is more of a stumbling block if you don't vote because you are not setting a good example for others (like your children and grandchildren) and if you don't vote at all, then you really don't have a real "right" to criticize the policies of our leaders, IMO. (However, unless Romney picks Rubio for VP, I will probably not vote because any hope of him winning will be lost so it would be a wasted vote, IMO.)

In addition, there is no one running on the "Christian" ticket. Perhaps we should start one. But, no!! There would be those who say we are not voting for a pastor, we are voting for President. So this "choice" about voting for the lesser of 2 evils is pretty much hyperbole, in my view. I don't view it that way - I view it as good vs evil, our Constitutional Republic vs Socialism/Marxism, freedom vs bondage, morality vs immorality, etc.

 

[Zaac]

Since the first of the primary season and before, there has been an obvious rift on this board and nation wide splitting Constitutional conservatives and the establishment, liberal Republican Party. It was seen in the primaries in the choice of a Republican nominee, and quite heavily debated on this board. Personally, I have gone from despising Romney to voting for him with great regret.

The debate still goes on, and I can fully understand the sentiments. It is a total impossible situation to justify either way. Romney's belief about Christ, plus his record on abortion, gun control, and gay rights while governor of MA is horrible.

The factor that changed my mind is the disorganization and disinterest of the third parties in really winning. Another factor is the fact that this is a secular office, so it comes down to his record in MA. I look at it this way. There is a chance Romney has changed his attitude on aboriton, gay rights and gun control. There is no chance Obama will change his mind. Also, Romney could do no worse on the economy. It comes down to this is all we have.

The question is, do you think the rift on the right will win out in Obama's favor, or do you think the horrible unemployment numbers will win out in Romney's favor?

It's difficult to unseat an incumbent President in the worst of situations. But when you've got someone whom the base isn't enthused about, it just about makes it impossible. And I think this is what the GOP has been missing.

They figure we're gonna push the "next in line" and the one that pollsters are saying is viewed positively by Independents.

All the while forgetting that if you can't carry your base or enthuse them, you ain't gonna win.

 

[Zaac]

Well, I go into the voting booth with a curtain pulled around me and no one can see how I vote, so how would that be a stumbling block? No one around me knows who I vote for or if I vote for any candidate or a straight ticket or just vote for the locals.

YIKES! this sounds like the Christian who is one way in the public eye and another behind closed doors: "i can do whatever I want as long as nobody knows".:laugh:

God always knows.

I think it is more of a stumbling block if you don't vote because you are not setting a good example for others (like your children and grandchildren) and if you don't vote at all, then you really don't have a real "right" to criticize the policies of our leaders, IMO. (However, unless Romney picks Rubio for VP, I will probably not vote because any hope of him winning will be lost so it would be a wasted vote, IMO.)

I agree. I think we HAVE to vote or else there's no need to complain about the results. :laugh:

In addition, there is no one running on the "Christian" ticket. Perhaps we should start one. But, no!! There would be those who say we are not voting for a pastor, we are voting for President. So this "choice" about voting for the lesser of 2 evils is pretty much hyperbole, in my view. I don't view it that way - I view it as good vs evil, our Constitutional Republic vs Socialism/Marxism, freedom vs bondage, morality vs immorality, etc.

More like evil against evil. we may always choose to not support either camp of evil and just write someone in.

Neither one of these men are gonna stop or slow down what's in store for this country. That's why I believe our focus has to continue to be honoring Christ and snatching from the fire those who are perishing in spite of the evil vs evil inevitable outcome.

evil is supposed to triumph in this world UNTIL Christ Himself comes back to put a stop to it.

 

[LadyEagle]

YIKES! this sounds like the Christian who is one way in the public eye and another behind closed doors: "i can do whatever I want as long as nobody knows".:laugh:

God always knows.

Yes, He does, and I hope you were teasing and not being judgmental of me.

To clarify, my response was to the "stumbling block" comment above...

"That means in this case, and we are to do all we do as unto the Lord, and if my brother has convictions that voting for "the lessor of two evils" is wrong then I must make sure I do not put a stumbling block into his way and cause him to go against his/her conscience by admonishing him, less I become satan’s advocate."

The point being that if you vote and the curtain is drawn, how is that a "stumbling block" in someone's way?

 

[LadyEagle]

What drove the economy for the first 20 years after WW2 when the working class did a little better every year was heavy manufacturing. We have been going down hill ever since those jobs started going off shore thanks the Romney and friends.

billwald, you are absolutely wrong.

The economy started going down hill with the death rattle of the steel industry.

What drove the final nail in the coffin in the economy with most of the American jobs going off shore were ALL of these Trade Agreements made by Democrats and Republicans, starting with Bill Clinton and NAFTA when Newt Gingrich "reached across the aisle."

The "GIANT sucking sound of American jobs going off shore" (aka Ross Perot, I believe) is another one of those UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES of Agreements made by both Democrats and Republicans who don't care a whit about American workers, only padding their own portfolios and garnering campaign contributions from various lobbyists in order to live a life on the public dole paid by us. :tear:

Obama will NEVER be able or have the will to "fix" the economy. Romney may have a chance if he can convince Congress to revisit some of these Trade Agreements and the corporate tax structure that makes it more profitable for businesses to locate off shore than here in the USA.

 

[billwald]

>>What drove the economy for the first 20 years after WW2 when the working class did a little better every year was heavy manufacturing. We have been going down hill ever since those jobs started going off shore thanks the Romney and friends.


>Do you EVER reply to a thread without an off-topic comment?!

The first 3 posts referred to the economy.

The GI Bill and Marshall Plan probably prevented the normal historical post war depression when the troops came home and contributed greatly the the economic success for following 20 years.

 

[Zaac]

Yes, He does, and I hope you were teasing and not being judgmental of me.

Naah. Just teasing and being silly.:smilewinkgrin:

To clarify, my response was to the "stumbling block" comment above...

"That means in this case, and we are to do all we do as unto the Lord, and if my brother has convictions that voting for "the lessor of two evils" is wrong then I must make sure I do not put a stumbling block into his way and cause him to go against his/her conscience by admonishing him, less I become satan’s advocate.

"

Understood.

The point being that if you vote and the curtain is drawn, how is that a "stumbling block" in someone's way?

Inevitably after the election results, the question will be asked again and again and again, like it always has been.

I just wonder how Christians, in good conscience, will approach the issue if asked. I'm always looking at how we witness. As such, as it did with the last election and the one before and the one before and inevitably this one, the question will be asked as the numbers come out about who voted for each candidate.

Big picture: what does it look like to those who don't follow Christ to find out that those who say they do overwhelmingly supported a candidate who doesn't follow Christ? Will they be more or less inclined to listen to Christians talk about Christ after hearing that their candidate of choice does not follow the Christ that Christians want to tell them they need?

Is it the proverbial chopping off our noses to spite our faces?

 

[LadyEagle]

Inevitably after the election results, the question will be asked again and again and again, like it always has been.

I just wonder how Christians, in good conscience, will approach the issue if asked. I'm always looking at how we witness. As such, as it did with the last election and the one before and the one before and inevitably this one, the question will be asked as the numbers come out about who voted for each candidate.

Big picture: what does it look like to those who don't follow Christ to find out that those who say they do overwhelmingly supported a candidate who doesn't follow Christ? Will they be more or less inclined to listen to Christians talk about Christ after hearing that their candidate of choice does not follow the Christ that Christians want to tell them they need?

Is it the proverbial chopping off our noses to spite our faces?

First of all, you are presuming that all Mormons are unbelievers and that Mr. Romney is an unbeliever, as well, since he is a Mormon. This is just as narrow minded as thinking all Catholics are unbelievers.

The facts:
A. No one knows what is in another's heart or that person's relationship to Jesus Christ.
B. Not everyone who says they are a "Christian" is one.
C. Not all Baptists are believers.
D. Not all Mormons are unbelievers.
E. Not all Catholics are unbelievers.
F. You say Mitt Romney "doesn't follow Christ" - your words. His actions in various ways suggest otherwise if you would care to research.
G. There are different stripes of Mormons.
H. There are different stripes of Baptists.


As an aside, I have relatives who belong to the Mormon congregation. They are nothing like the picture you try to paint here and to the best of my knowledge and their own personal testimonies, they are redeemed and followers of Christ just as much as anyone here on the BB. It is very likely there are some who post here who don't even know Jesus Christ at all, but falsely believe they do for whatever reason.

Our Baptist churches are filled with hypocrites of every stripe, slanderers, backbiters, hateful words towards other people, yet those same people will be the first to believe they are going to heaven because they have a church membership and serve on committees or sing in the choir, but they think nothing of murdering another person's spirit or reputation with their vicious tongues.

Before we are so quick to judge another person's heart who does not subscribe to the denomination we think they should belong to, before we castigate someone as belonging to a "cult" and assert that individual doesn't believe in the same Jesus as we do, would it not be better to spend more time searching our own hearts for seeds of self-righteousness and get the beam out of our own eye? Is it too hard to remember that we are ALL sinners, some of us are saved by Grace?

To paraphrase: It is by Grace we are saved, not of works, not how we vote, and certainly not by boasting. Just Grace.

Speaking for myself, part of my witness for Jesus Christ is taking a stand by voting against murder and hands that shed innocent blood (abortion), unnatural acts (Romans Chapter 1), taking a stand for Freedom and Liberty (against socialism, Marxism) and being the salt and light as God wants us to be in the world of darkness and evil.

As a Christian, I view my vote as "standing in the breach" against the unrighteousness that has been launched on our nation.

Ezekiel 22:30: "And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none."

Again, speaking for myself, I have been truly blessed to be born of a Christian heritage in the greatest nation on the face of the earth - God placed me here of these parents, from these descendants, in this spot on this wonderful planet that He created but sin has ruined, and it is not only my patriotic duty to vote for the person I believe will be best to preserve this Christian heritage and freedom handed down to me by my forefathers who fought, bled, and died for it, but hopefully to be able to hand some of what is left down to my children and grandchildren.

I will not apologize to you or anyone else for casting my vote for Mr. Romney. I am no less of a Christian for it and no less of a witness. No matter what you or anyone else here thinks. I answer only to God and so do the others who believe and feel as I do. :flower: