Reason in the Balance

[Aaron]

Apparently, Akin had misunderstood something attributed to Dr. John Willke, the virtual founder of the prolife movement, and who had practiced medicine for 40 years.

He is known to say that because of the trauma of forcible rape, the organs don't function properly. Specifically, that the "tubes are spastic" and can hinder sperm. That is one reason, it is reported, that he says pregnancies from forcible rape are rare. Another reason cited is that in a majority of cases, sperm is deposited in regions not designed for reproduction.

This is after a cursory internet search.

Of course, many doctors will today say that's not true, just as they will say that Darwinism advances medical science and condoms can prevent AIDS—politics.

So, I'm wondering. Can the tubes be spastic in cases of forcible rape? Something a doctor who wants to keep his job will say is irrelevant to me. As time allows, I will search for corroborating or contradictory testimony published at the time Willke's assertion was published.

 

[InTheLight]

He is known to say that because of the trauma of forcible rape, the organs don't function properly. Specifically, that the "tubes are spastic" and can hinder sperm.

So, I'm wondering. Can the tubes be spastic in cases of forcible rape?

To paraphrase Scarlett O.:

People who don't know where babies come shouldn't post stuff like this to Baptist Board.

 

[Aaron]

To paraphrase Scarlett O.:

People who don't know where babies come shouldn't post stuff like this to Baptist Board.

Is that a yes or a no, and do you have any supporting documentation?

 

[InTheLight]

Is that a yes or a no, and do you have any supporting documentation?

Can the tubes be spastic in cases of forcible rape?

Really? Are you serious? How would one go about collecting data on this sort of a hypothesis? Insane.

 

[Scarlett O.]

So, I'm wondering. Can the tubes be spastic in cases of forcible rape? Something a doctor who wants to keep his job will say is irrelevant to me. As time allows, I will search for corroborating or contradictory testimony published at the time Willke's assertion was published.

Brother, you already have your mind made up. You are just looking for medical evidence to support your view of rape and pregnancy. How do you know that Dr. Wilke isn't saying the things he says to "keep his position" with the National Right to Life groups.

You've asserted that doctors who disagree with Wilkes are all believers in Darwinism and push the use of condoms as protection against AIDS for political purposes.

Of course, many doctors will today say that's not true, just as they will say that Darwinism advances medical science and condoms can prevent AIDS—politics.

You already have your mind made up about rape and pregnancy.

I could have a discussion with you and bring your attention to how the fallopian tubes work - during rape or during consensual sex - and I could bring to your attention to medical information, but you would just dismiss them as Darwin pushing, condom pushing, and irrelevant to your beliefs.

I will leave your with this.

Here are Dr. Wilke's exact words on the matter.

“This is a traumatic thing — she’s, shall we say, she’s uptight,” Dr. Willke said of a woman being raped, adding, “She is frightened, tight, and so on. And sperm, if deposited in her vagina, are less likely to be able to fertilize. The tubes are spastic.”

Uptight? You think?

And he believes that this being "uptight" makes a woman's fallopian tubes to close off and prevent a microscopic sperm that is already in the vaginal canal to not be able to swim into the fallopian tube? Sperm are microscopic. How large of an opening does he think one of them needs?

If she has an egg - waiting in the fallopian tube for a sperm to fertilize it - it can wait there for days - sperm can literally survive up 3 to 5 days in the birth canal. How long does this doctor think that rape victim's fallopian tubes are shut off? And what is his evidence that they close off during a rape and not during any other time of great physical or emotional stress - such as the death of a loved one?

How big of an opening does he think they need in the tube?

How does he KNOW that a rape victim's tubes are "spastic"?

Why does he think that trauma tells the pituitary gland in the brain to tell the tubes to shut down? He DID say that a woman's emotional state determined her fallopian tube behavior - did he not?

"Hormone production is controlled by a part of the brain that is easily influenced by emotions. There’s no greater emotional trauma that can be experienced by a woman than an assault rape. This can radically upset her possibility of ovulation, fertilization, implantation and even nurturing of a pregnancy.”

Why are you taking this man at face value and dismissing his critics as "irrelevant to you" and "Darwinian - politics of AIDS" supporters before you have even heard them?

I know that there are pro-lifers who reeeaaallly want pregnancy from a rape to be impossible. I am pro-life, too. And I don't believe that rape justifies an abortion in all cases. And I am open-minded enough to look at this from all medical perspectives and have....

I just find Dr. Wilkes medically lacking in this area.

 

[Don]

My question for Aaron: what happens if you receive no corroborating scientific evidence?

 

[Aaron]

You've asserted that doctors who disagree with Wilkes are all believers in Darwinism and push the use of condoms as protection against AIDS for political purposes.

No I didn't. I asserted that people will lie for political reasons and for fear of repercussions. For that reason I'm looking to older documents.

You already have your mind made up about rape and pregnancy.

No I haven't. I simply not willing to dismiss it off hand out of politics.

I could have a discussion with you and bring your attention to how the fallopian tubes work - during rape or during consensual sex -

And I have access to what one prolife doctor who practiced for 40 years has said about it.

and I could bring to your attention to medical information, but you would just dismiss them as Darwin pushing, condom pushing, and irrelevant to your beliefs.

Depends on the source.

I will leave your with this.

Here are Dr. Wilke's exact words on the matter.

“This is a traumatic thing — she’s, shall we say, she’s uptight,” Dr. Willke said of a woman being raped, adding, “She is frightened, tight, and so on. And sperm, if deposited in her vagina, are less likely to be able to fertilize. The tubes are spastic.”

Is this what you read in his book where he made the case, or are you quoting a secondary source?

Uptight? You think?

And he believes that this being "uptight" makes a woman's fallopian tubes to close off and prevent a microscopic sperm that is already in the vaginal canal to not be able to swim into the fallopian tube? Sperm are microscopic. How large of an opening does he think one of them needs?

Google spastic tubes and fertility.

If she has an egg - waiting in the fallopian tube for a sperm to fertilize it - it can wait there for days - sperm can literally survive up 3 to 5 days in the birth canal. How long does this doctor think that rape victim's fallopian tubes are shut off? And what is his evidence that they close off during a rape and not during any other time of great physical or emotional stress - such as the death of a loved one?

How big of an opening does he think they need in the tube?

How does he KNOW that a rape victim's tubes are "spastic"?

Why does he think that trauma tells the pituitary gland in the brain to tell the tubes to shut down? He DID say that a woman's emotional state determined her fallopian tube behavior - did he not?

"Hormone production is controlled by a part of the brain that is easily influenced by emotions. There’s no greater emotional trauma that can be experienced by a woman than an assault rape. This can radically upset her possibility of ovulation, fertilization, implantation and even nurturing of a pregnancy.”

Why are you taking this man at face value and dismissing his critics as "irrelevant to you" and "Darwinian - politics of AIDS" supporters before you have even heard them?

I know that there are pro-lifers who reeeaaallly want pregnancy from a rape to be impossible. I am pro-life, too. And I don't believe that rape justifies an abortion in all cases. And I am open-minded enough to look at this from all medical perspectives and have....

I just find Dr. Wilkes medically lacking in this area.

These are your feelings, and your medical credentials are . . . ?

 

[Aaron]

My question for Aaron: what happens if you receive no corroborating scientific evidence?

For an absence of corroboration to be meaningful, there will have to be credible rebuttals of his claims.

I'll start with finding a copy of his book (published in 1985) and looking for the sources he cited.

Again, it will be as time allows.

 

[Don]

Willke's primary source was a doctor named Mecklenburg; who based some of his conclusions on experiments conducted by the Nazis during WWII.

And I hate to be the one to point this out to you, but both Willkes and Mecklenburg are pro-life; which, unfortunately, means their conclusions are as "politically" suspect as the other side.

I can't find where the research was corroborated by independent sources; but rather, has had conflicting information published by the Medical University of South Carolina. Possible other conflicting info published in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

 

[Aaron]

Willke's primary source was a doctor named Mecklenburg; who based some of his conclusions on experiments conducted by the Nazis during WWII.

Well, there you go. Where else but the womb can innocents be traumatized in the name of medicine? [edit] Besides, if true, this does neither negates the science nor the data. Information from Nazi experiments is used today in describing human physiological responses to freezing and certain types of the toxic gases. However, your attempt to disqualify the data and the individuals by attempting to link them to Nazism is noted, and goes to further support my point about the role politics is playing in the manner in which information is processed.[/edit]

Like I said, I'll get his book and check his sources for myself. Did you find this in his bibliography?

And I hate to be the one to point this out to you, but both Willkes and Mecklenburg are pro-life; which, unfortunately, means their conclusions are as "politically" suspect as the other side.

Yes, the saving of innocent life is a political motive that engenders just as much subterfuge as that which seeks to legitimize sodomy.

Puh-leeze.

I can't find where the research was corroborated by independent sources; but rather, has had conflicting information published by the Medical University of South Carolina. Possible other conflicting info published in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

The time of the publication is paramount to ensuring a study unhindered by political agenda. To refute a 1998 study affirming the contrary, The APA published a study in 2001 saying child sexual abuse causes little or no harm to children.

I'll do my own research, thanks.

 

[Don]

Well, there you go. Where else but the womb can innocents be traumatized in the name of medicine? [edit] Besides, if true, this does neither negates the science nor the data. Information from Nazi experiments is used today in describing human physiological responses to freezing and certain types of the toxic gases. However, your attempt to disqualify the data and the individuals by attempting to link them to Nazism is noted, and goes to further support my point about the role politics is playing in the manner in which information is processed.[/edit]

Like I said, I'll get his book and check his sources for myself. Did you find this in his bibliography?

The trauma the nazis subjected the women to wasn't rape, but a situation where the women thought they were about to be killed. I can't find any studies that specified the woman who had just been raped was ovulating.

Yes, the saving of innocent life is a political motive that engenders just as much subterfuge as that which seeks to legitimize sodomy.

Puh-leeze.

Your very words prove my point. Your lack of objectivity is disheartening.

The time of the publication is paramount to ensuring a study unhindered by political agenda. To refute a 1998 study affirming the contrary, The APA published a study in 2001 saying child sexual abuse causes little or no harm to children.

I'll do my own research, thanks.

Mecklenburg's paper was originally written in the 70's. The papers I referred to were at least in the 80's, as well as more recent.