Reasonable accomodations

[Salty]

Florida High School sports will NOT give reasonable accommodations for a Seventh Day High school
for a Basketball playoff game.

The game is scheduled for 430 pm, an hour before sunset. There was another game schedule at 730, the the State refused to switch the games.
Thus the opposing team is scheduled to win the game via forfeit 2-0.

If you were the principal of the opposing school - would you have a problem to switch time so the SDA could play after sunset.
Would it make a difference if the game was rescheduled for a Sunday.?

Now if that team had been a Muslim school......

 

[Reynolds]

Florida High School sports will NOT give reasonable accommodations for a Seventh Day High school
for a Basketball playoff game.

The game is scheduled for 430 pm, an hour before sunset. There was another game schedule at 730, the the State refused to switch the games.
Thus the opposing team is scheduled to win the game via forfeit 2-0.

If you were the principal of the opposing school - would you have a problem to switch time so the SDA could play after sunset.
Would it make a difference if the game was rescheduled for a Sunday.?

Now if that team had been a Muslim school......

I would have to think about that. I would not regularly play games on Sunday or on Wed night. A bunch of youth from our church, with the pastors blessing, missed wed night service to play in state B Ball tournament. I would not have a problem playing a game or two on Sunday night if I had to. I also worked half the Sundays in my life for almost 20 years. Same people who told me I shouldn't do it had no problem dialing 911 on Sunday. I would have to think about this situation long and hard. Is it trouncing religious liberty on part of Florida, or is it misguided legalism on part of SDA school? Tough one.

 

[AustinC]

Florida High School sports will NOT give reasonable accommodations for a Seventh Day High school
for a Basketball playoff game.

The game is scheduled for 430 pm, an hour before sunset. There was another game schedule at 730, the the State refused to switch the games.
Thus the opposing team is scheduled to win the game via forfeit 2-0.

If you were the principal of the opposing school - would you have a problem to switch time so the SDA could play after sunset.
Would it make a difference if the game was rescheduled for a Sunday.?

Now if that team had been a Muslim school......

First, you are projecting regarding a Muslim school. That is an unnecessary strawman.
Second, the school must choose between their legalistic beliefs or the state sanctioned sports commission. These brackets and dates were set many months back. Each school knows that these dates are there. The 7DA school is having its "chariots of fire" moment. You can't blame a secular sports authority for the schedule that was set for all teams in the league.

 

[Salty]

First, you are projecting regarding a Muslim school. That is an unnecessary strawman.
Second, the school must choose between their legalistic beliefs or the state sanctioned sports commission. These brackets and dates were set many months back. Each school knows that these dates are there. The 7DA school is having its "chariots of fire" moment. You can't blame a secular sports authority for the schedule that was set for all teams in the league.

1) The school does NOT know the dates until after the season is over - and the playoffs are based on standings -
2) Legalistic beliefs - to a SDA the Sabbath is solid doctrine.
That would be like someone saying that refusing to baptize a baby is a legalistic belief.
3) Switching a game time for a playoff game is NOT a major deal. As a pastor, I would have no problem doing so for that SDA church
4) The Muslims - my statement - is NOT a Strawman! - Me thinks accommodations would have been made. All I ask is consistency. I hope I would be wrong.

This happened in Dearborn, Mich.
I question whether it is constitutional for a public school to schedule football practices from 11 p.m. to 4 a.m. for a Muslim holiday. That's an exceptional disruption to a school environment, considering normal sleep schedules and their impact on learning.

Fordson is a public school that has a responsibility to all students, not just the predominant Muslim majority. If Muslim parents want their kids to be able to practice on a schedule that accommodates Ramadan fasting, they should send them to private schools.

So is this a reasonable accommodation? Should non-Muslims be subject to this?
Michigan High School Practices at Midnight for Ramadan | SportsFilter

 

[AustinC]

1) The school does NOT know the dates until after the season is over - and the playoffs are based on standings -
2) Legalistic beliefs - to a SDA the Sabbath is solid doctrine.
That would be like someone saying that refusing to baptize a baby is a legalistic belief.
3) Switching a game time for a playoff game is NOT a major deal. As a pastor, I would have no problem doing so for that SDA church
4) The Muslims - my statement - is NOT a Strawman! - Me thinks accommodations would have been made. All I ask is consistency. I hope I would be wrong.

This happened in Dearborn, Mich.
I question whether it is constitutional for a public school to schedule football practices from 11 p.m. to 4 a.m. for a Muslim holiday. That's an exceptional disruption to a school environment, considering normal sleep schedules and their impact on learning.

Fordson is a public school that has a responsibility to all students, not just the predominant Muslim majority. If Muslim parents want their kids to be able to practice on a schedule that accommodates Ramadan fasting, they should send them to private schools.

So is this a reasonable accommodation? Should non-Muslims be subject to this?
Michigan High School Practices at Midnight for Ramadan | SportsFilter

I hope you understand that each State has its own high school sports governing body. They function independently. Therefore what Michigan does has no bearing on Florida. Second, to secure neutral site locations, these dates and times are set far in advance.
Again, the 7DA school has its "chariots of fire" moment. They make their choice and live with it. The governing sports body is under no compulsion to make accommodations for a personal belief.

 

[Reynolds]

1) The school does NOT know the dates until after the season is over - and the playoffs are based on standings -
2) Legalistic beliefs - to a SDA the Sabbath is solid doctrine.
That would be like someone saying that refusing to baptize a baby is a legalistic belief.
3) Switching a game time for a playoff game is NOT a major deal. As a pastor, I would have no problem doing so for that SDA church
4) The Muslims - my statement - is NOT a Strawman! - Me thinks accommodations would have been made. All I ask is consistency. I hope I would be wrong.

This happened in Dearborn, Mich.
I question whether it is constitutional for a public school to schedule football practices from 11 p.m. to 4 a.m. for a Muslim holiday. That's an exceptional disruption to a school environment, considering normal sleep schedules and their impact on learning.

Fordson is a public school that has a responsibility to all students, not just the predominant Muslim majority. If Muslim parents want their kids to be able to practice on a schedule that accommodates Ramadan fasting, they should send them to private schools.

So is this a reasonable accommodation? Should non-Muslims be subject to this?
Michigan High School Practices at Midnight for Ramadan | SportsFilter

If the tournament were being played in a Muslim Holiday period and a Muslim school was in same situation as SDA school, would you be defending the Muslim school?

 

[Reynolds]

I hope you understand that each State has its own high school sports governing body. They function independently. Therefore what Michigan does has no bearing on Florida. Second, to secure neutral site locations, these dates and times are set far in advance.
Again, the 7DA school has its "chariots of fire" moment. They make their choice and live with it. The governing sports body is under no compulsion to make accommodations for a personal belief.

It's not an individual belief. It is a corporate religious belief held by a recognized historical denomination. I think courts would give it more weight than a single individual religious belief.

 

[Salty]

I hope you understand that each State has its own high school sports governing body. They function independently. Therefore what Michigan does has no bearing on Florida. Second, to secure neutral site locations, these dates and times are set far in advance.
Again, the 7DA school has its "chariots of fire" moment. They make their choice and live with it. The governing sports body is under no compulsion to make accommodations for a personal belief.

1)Wow - Each State or Commonwealth has its own standards - I never knew that ... N-O-T!!!

2) Yes, dates and possibly sites may be selected in advance - but until the season is over - you don't know who plays when or where.

3) Asking to switch the 430 and 730 games is NOT an unreasonable accommodation - Now if the game was in the summer time and Sunset was at 10 pm and they insisted the game not begin until after 10 pm - THAT would be unreasonable.

4) and as stated before - this is not an individual - it is a fundamental belief of the SDA

 

[Reynolds]

1)Wow - Each State or Commonwealth has its own standards - I never knew that ... N-O-T!!!

2) Yes, dates and possibly sites may be selected in advance - but until the season is over - you don't know who plays when or where.

3) Asking to switch the 430 and 730 games is NOT an unreasonable accommodation - Now if the game was in the summer time and Sunset was at 10 pm and they insisted the game not begin until after 10 pm - THAT would be unreasonable.

4) and as stated before - this is not an individual - it is a fundamental belief of the SDA

Each state does have its own high school sports sanctioning body. In Ga, it is G.H.S.A.

I don't see the example you gave of the Muslim football practice as a legitimate comparison. The state didn't make the school have practice at night. The school did it so half the team would not have to miss a week of practice.

 

[AustinC]

1)Wow - Each State or Commonwealth has its own standards - I never knew that ... N-O-T!!!

2) Yes, dates and possibly sites may be selected in advance - but until the season is over - you don't know who plays when or where.

3) Asking to switch the 430 and 730 games is NOT an unreasonable accommodation - Now if the game was in the summer time and Sunset was at 10 pm and they insisted the game not begin until after 10 pm - THAT would be unreasonable.

4) and as stated before - this is not an individual - it is a fundamental belief of the SDA

1) Good
2) Correct
3) The ruling body is under no compulsion to change the day or time. (see Eric Liddell)
4) The ideology of a high school is not a factor in how the brackets line up. Take the forfeit if you can't play.

 

[Reformed1689]

and the playoffs are based on standings -

Guess they should have played differently to get in a different part of the bracket

 

[Reformed1689]

I hope you understand that each State has its own high school sports governing body. They function independently. Therefore what Michigan does has no bearing on Florida. Second, to secure neutral site locations, these dates and times are set far in advance.
Again, the 7DA school has its "chariots of fire" moment. They make their choice and live with it. The governing sports body is under no compulsion to make accommodations for a personal belief.

In the same token, that also means the school knows dates/times far in advance.

 

[Salty]

4) The ideology of a high school is not a factor in how the brackets line up. Take the forfeit if you can't play.

I NEVER said anything about the ideology of a school has ANYTHING to do with the brackets!!!

 

[AustinC]

I NEVER said anything about the ideology of a school has ANYTHING to do with the brackets!!!

Sure you did. You state that...
..."this is not an individual - it is a fundamental belief of the SDA." That's a 7DA ideology.

The brackets were created and this is the time and place designated by the bracket. If that school cannot make it to the game, that school forfeits. It's really not difficult.

 

[AustinC]

In the same token, that also means the school knows dates/times far in advance.

Correct. They know this conflict may arise. They can appeal to the governing body, but if the governing body does not change the situation, the school has to make a decision (Eric Liddell).

If I am on that board, I have to think about setting a precedent. If we make an exception here, what will that legally mean for appeals that would come afterward. I would err on a very tight standard and in this case say "play at this time or forfeit."

 

[Salty]

Sure you did. You state that...
..."this is not an individual - it is a fundamental belief of the SDA." That's a 7DA ideology.

The brackets were created and this is the time and place designated by the bracket. If that school cannot make it to the game, that school forfeits. It's really not difficult.

OF course I said that the Sabbath is part of their belief- but the state does NOT use that belief to determine brackets!!!

But I stand by my decision! - it would NOT cause an undue hardship to move the time.
and just to clarify - if the Sabbath ended at 10 pm - THAT would be an undue hardship!

So - unless you have anything NEW to present - we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Reynolds]

OF course I said that the Sabbath is part of their belief- but the state does NOT use that belief to determine brackets!!!

But I stand by my decision! - it would NOT cause an undue hardship to move the time.
and just to clarify - if the Sabbath ended at 10 pm - THAT would be an undue hardship!

So - unless you have anything NEW to present - we will have to agree to disagree.

Why you Defending a cult? I think SDA is considered a cult by B.B. If not, my apologies in advance.

 

[agedman]

@Salty
This is so very unfortunate, for it highlights politics and policy concerning a schedule is more important then the student.

If I were governor of the state (in which I once called my home state) I would insist that the state education authority make accommodations because (assuming both schools are accredited by the state) the principle of student inclusion irregardless of religion, race, and heritage is the overriding principle. If then a student is obligated by one of those three, then the state must make accommodations. If I recall that is federal law and not a state prerogative. But I may be far too long out of the education business to know for certain.

But then, Florida isn't Texas, and.... well.... in the long run it can be a great time for the believers to realize that God isn't impressed by athletic ability.

 

[Salty]

@Salty
This is so very unfortunate, for it highlights politics and policy concerning a schedule is more important then the student.

If I were governor of the state (in which I once called my home state) I would insist that the state education authority make accommodations because (assuming both schools are accredited by the state) the principle of student inclusion irregardless of religion, race, and heritage is the overriding principle. If then a student is obligated by one of those three, then the state must make accommodations. If I recall that is federal law and not a state prerogative. But I may be far too long out of the education business to know for certain.

But then, Florida isn't Texas, and.... well.... in the long run it can be a great time for the believers to realize that God isn't impressed by athletic ability.

I wonder if this has now been brought to the attention of the Governor - I think he would overrule the decision of the board.
I dont think it is really a political issue - just the fact that the board does not want to make an exception to policy

 

[AustinC]

I wonder if this has now been brought to the attention of the Governor - I think he would overrule the decision of the board.
I dont think it is really a political issue - just the fact that the board does not want to make an exception to policy

The governor has nothing to do with this. He can merely voice his opinion as a private citizen. Most governing bodies are independent, much like the NCAA in colleges.