Reasoning with Catholics

[Yeshua1]

I am stepping outside the field of evangelism and into Apologetics. My first time doing something like this as typically I am a open air preacher.

Last night I made an attempt to reason with three Catholic leaders at their church for 2 hours. I had said that the meeting would be primarily about Justification and other topics would need to wait for other meetings, as I believe Justification is the Catholics weakest point. However they hit me on a weak spot on the topic of Canonization as unfortunately I did not come prepared to debate on that topic and the leader did not keep his agreement to debate only justification. I have this book on Catholics by James White, but he does not hit on the topic as well as Norm Geisler in another book that I have, so I am looking through both books for the next meeting.

I had a number of verses on Justification by faith written down and gave them a few but they kept holding to their works based argument using passages from James and also Matt 25 to indicate that works are required for salvation. However the passage that seemed to hit a nerve was Gal 2:16 (KJV) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Their response to this verse was that its application is first century only and not applicable for today. Strange argument, and at the same time they believe the book of James and Matt 25 is applicable to us today.

We plan to meet again and this time I will be ready on canonization as this Norm Geisler book I have is providing much detail on this topic. Anyone ever reasoned with a Catholic? As a Calvinist all I can do is plead with them and attempt to reason, however at this time God has not granted faith and repentance to them as they may not be of the elect, so since they are interested we will meet again, but if they continue to reject the gospel, I will dust off my feet and leave. Perhaps at a later date they will come to faith.

Also one question. Why do they like NT Wright?

The church of romes holds with and teaches another Gospel, for if they really held to pauline Justification, then their use of the sacraments would be made null and void!

And they "love" Nt Wright teachings on this issue, as he seems to be able to take their viewpointd on justification and repackage it in a fashion that many baptists will accept it now as being true...

 

[Revmitchell]

:thumbs: One has to wonder how much harm as been done by those who are not prepared for these encounters.

Catholics have gotten very apologetic lately. They probably seen him as a light workout.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Evan, maybe now you'll listen to others who talk about being discipled. You made an arrogant statement before of how the HS would give you what to say. Obviously He didn't in this case, as you admit to not being prepared.

 

[evangelist6589]

I am a Calvinist and I hold to the sovereignty of God in salvation. God will draw his elect to faith and grant them faith and repentance. I speak like Paul who said this.

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God

.

That said all I can do is preach and all God can do is win souls and maybe use me to draw some elect to faith.

Most on this board need to read the book Chosen by God by RC Sproul and look up the dozens of scriptures he cites in the book for the sovereignty of God in salvation. Go ahead and check out the verses but the theology is taught all over the NT.

 

[Revmitchell]

Sproal is a preterist I would not read his laundry list. Second, it takes great hutzpa to tell most on this board they need to read something especially when you show such a massive need to be discipled.

 

[evangelist6589]

Evan, maybe now you'll listen to others who talk about being discipled. You made an arrogant statement before of how the HS would give you what to say. Obviously He didn't in this case, as you admit to not being prepared.

Practice makes perfect. My first open air sermon was not the best neither and as I recall it took me a while to start preaching. I also did not do street evangelism at first neither. If there was a good Calvinist/Reformed brother to give me insight I would take it, and I would not listen to the mass non-Calvinist that dominate this board and my church. So since God has not provided one, I will use what he has provided and that is his bible, books, and sermon podcasts.

Actually I spoke with a fellow Calvinist evangelist and he encouraged me to keep doing what I am doing so not sure why the non-Calvinist on this board do not like my approach.

 

[evangelist6589]

Sproal is a preterist I would not read his laundry list. Second, it takes great hutzpa to tell most on this board they need to read something especially when you show such a massive need to be discipled.

I love RC!!!! I disagree with his eschatology but his books are awesome. He also endorsed the fire and brimstone approach in evangelism and I get much insight from him. He provides a great healthy meal of theology. I have about 5 of his books, his DVD series, and a book on CD.

Regarding evangelism it was RC that said we should use fire and brimstone, preach on Hell, and such with unbelievers. But regardless it was Jesus who said it first!!! You non-Calvinist need to read the Bible a little closer.

 

[blessedwife318]

Most on this board need to read the book Chosen by God by RC Sproul and look up the dozens of scriptures he cites in the book for the sovereignty of God in salvation. Go ahead and check out the verses but the theology is taught all over the NT.

No what people NEED to read is the Bible. Sola Scriptua.

I don't see anyone on here arguing against God's Sovereignty but you seem to pull that out any time someone disagrees with you and of course tell us what the latest BOOK is which of course is never the Bible.

 

[JonC]

I love RC!!!!

That is obvious as the two of you are on a first name (or initial) basis. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Yeshua1]

I love RC!!!! I disagree with his eschatology but his books are awesome. He also endorsed the fire and brimstone approach in evangelism and I get much insight from him. He provides a great healthy meal of theology. I have about 5 of his books, his DVD series, and a book on CD.

Regarding evangelism it was RC that said we should use fire and brimstone, preach on Hell, and such with unbelievers. But regardless it was Jesus who said it first!!! You non-Calvinist need to read the Bible a little closer.

Jesus ONLY used that kind of approach though to blast off on the self rightous Pharisses and Scribes, but to the "common sinner", he said to thm, "come unto me, all of you who are heavy ladem , and I will give you rest"

just cannot find Biblical support to have fire and brimstone approach to all lost persons!

And one can preach the Gospel and have theLord used that to save sinners, regardless if they are cal or not, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

No what people NEED to read is the Bible. Sola Scriptua.

I don't see anyone on here arguing against God's Sovereignty but you seem to pull that out any time someone disagrees with you and of course tell us what the latest BOOK is which of course is never the Bible.

I am a calvinist, but unlike our brother in the Lord, do see Non cals having taught and preached Jesus to the Lost effectively, and for one holding to scriptures alone as ONLY inspired source to get doctrines from, he does seem to be quoting and using other sources quite a lot!

 

[Sapper Woody]

Practice makes perfect. My first open air sermon was not the best neither and as I recall it took me a while to start preaching. I also did not do street evangelism at first neither. If there was a good Calvinist/Reformed brother to give me insight I would take it, and I would not listen to the mass non-Calvinist that dominate this board and my church. So since God has not provided one, I will use what he has provided and that is his bible, books, and sermon podcasts.

Actually I spoke with a fellow Calvinist evangelist and he encouraged me to keep doing what I am doing so not sure why the non-Calvinist on this board do not like my approach.

As any music teacher will tell you, practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent. If you practice the piano incorrectly, you will forever after play it incorrectly.



This is why I say you need someone to disciple you. Your heart is in the right place but your inexperience is getting in the way. Without a teacher you will be stuck with however you practice.