In all humbleness, Bro. Dallas; do you like conspiracy theories?Originally posted by Frogman:
Dear Spirit and Truth,
I agree. I view this movie as I have said before part and parcel of the spirit of antichrist. The graphic imagery etc. imho is not far from those lying wonders which shall be presented to the world.
The work of satan in the antichrist is to set forth a false trinity, this is seen in the false prophet representing the Holy Spirit for it is he who will cause the world to accept the antichrist, and this will put satan in the place as god of this world where his heart cried out for and caused his being cast out from heaven.
This movie with all its splendor and apparent use of scripture is an attempt to set the stage for that greater manifestation of this evil trinity personified in the man of sin.
I know this will not be received among the brothers and sisters here supporting the film. The question is not is this film is anti-Semitic. But rather that whether this film is anti Christ. The Jews nationally did reject Christ, the Gentiles represented by the authority of Roman law did provide the means, but the foreordained determined will of God crucified Christ and the submission of the eternal Son of God to that will willingly laid down his life.
The issue is Christology. Did Christ stand as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world or not?
The Bible says he did. By focusing on an event in time, then the eternal nature of the Lamb of God becomes out of view and the door is open through the holding of hands with such error to receive the greater falsehood of the manifested man of sin.
I believe this would hold true regardless of the millenial position a believer takes.
Bro. Dallas Eaton
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Reasons Not To See "The Passion"
- Thread starter Jeffrey H
- Start date
We know what God has ordained because He has placed that in His Word.
The world will tell us this is not enough. I maintain the Word of God is enough and needs no help by images on a movie screen.
In reading your posts, I believe there are other more significant differences between us than just the observance of holidays and proclaiming a movie is or is not an ordained means of preaching the gospel.
Those differences can best be discussed on this board in the C/A forum.
Here I am discussing the reasons I do not believe God is using this film, here I have also added my belief the holidays (which by the way I have always observed but am working to removing from doing so) have no place in connection or pretension these things can by some miracle usurp the authority of the preached word of God.
This means I believe these observances have no place in the church; what you do in your home outside the NT church I see no harm in.
Whether you agree with me or not is not the title nor the purpose of this post. The same is true of myself. The title says reasons to not see the movie. I am discussing the reasons I have; this and no other movie is ordained as God to save them that believe.
Neither is the observation of the holidays mentioned above found to have a scriptural warrant for their observance as any kind of tool for the salvation of believers. Too many are looking for tools and making many tools to attract people who are not attracted by the Holy Spirit and will have no root in themselves to persevere. Instead of using these, we should use what God has ordained.
Again, thanks for your posts.
Brother Dallas Eaton
The world will tell us this is not enough. I maintain the Word of God is enough and needs no help by images on a movie screen.
In reading your posts, I believe there are other more significant differences between us than just the observance of holidays and proclaiming a movie is or is not an ordained means of preaching the gospel.
Those differences can best be discussed on this board in the C/A forum.
Here I am discussing the reasons I do not believe God is using this film, here I have also added my belief the holidays (which by the way I have always observed but am working to removing from doing so) have no place in connection or pretension these things can by some miracle usurp the authority of the preached word of God.
This means I believe these observances have no place in the church; what you do in your home outside the NT church I see no harm in.
Whether you agree with me or not is not the title nor the purpose of this post. The same is true of myself. The title says reasons to not see the movie. I am discussing the reasons I have; this and no other movie is ordained as God to save them that believe.
Neither is the observation of the holidays mentioned above found to have a scriptural warrant for their observance as any kind of tool for the salvation of believers. Too many are looking for tools and making many tools to attract people who are not attracted by the Holy Spirit and will have no root in themselves to persevere. Instead of using these, we should use what God has ordained.
Again, thanks for your posts.
Brother Dallas Eaton
Dear Brother Phillip,
Thank you for the spirit in which you are discussing this with me.
Let me ask you something. How did Satan present the command of God to not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
He told her the command as taught to her by Adam (who received the command) was a conspiracy theory. She believed this and thereby being deceived ate of the fruit that was pleasant to look upon and had the ability to make her as God knowing good from evil. It was Adam, who had received the command, who then being presented with this reality of what Eve did who chose to be with her rather than with God.
Thanks for your posting.
Bro. Dallas
Thank you for the spirit in which you are discussing this with me.
Let me ask you something. How did Satan present the command of God to not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
He told her the command as taught to her by Adam (who received the command) was a conspiracy theory. She believed this and thereby being deceived ate of the fruit that was pleasant to look upon and had the ability to make her as God knowing good from evil. It was Adam, who had received the command, who then being presented with this reality of what Eve did who chose to be with her rather than with God.
Thanks for your posting.
Bro. Dallas
Originally posted by Phillip:
Okay, I'll tell my conservative pastor that I don't think he should observe Jesus' birthday in the church next Christmas. I'll give him your phone number.
Would you tell him this because you believe it or because I have told you?
Being conservative is a relevant position, imho.
As I said, my family does observe Christmas and Easter, but I see no example of it in Scripture as being utilized in the NT church to proclaim the message of the gospel. Where in the Bible can we support the representation of Easter by chicken eggs, delivered and hidden by bunny rabbits and having inside a reward if we look for and find them?
Many these days even use hollow artificial eggs, is this representing a larger message?
What about the incessant complaints folks engage in the mad rush during the Christmas season to beat the holiday rush, to not receiving the gift they wanted? What greater message have we taught about the free gift of Grace and of the redemptive work of Christ when most folks complain so much about unwanted gifts?
Bro. Dallas
RaptureReady
New Member
Here's a question. I wonder why it takes a movie to spread the Gospel and be heard around the world instead of the saved, true church of God, Bible believer going out and proclaiming Christ?
Spirit and Truth
New Member
The Jesuit scholar who translated `The Passion'
Fulco even confessed to some linguistic mischief.
"Here and there I put in playful things which nobody will know. There's one scene where Caiaphas turns to his cohorts and says something in Aramaic. The subtitle says, `You take care of it.' He's actually saying, `Take care of my laundry.'"
http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/movies/mmx-0403040033mar04,0,3912206.story?coll=mmx-movies_heds
S&T:
Why not ? .......he translated scripture mixed with the additions of men into Aramaic........
Fulco even confessed to some linguistic mischief.
"Here and there I put in playful things which nobody will know. There's one scene where Caiaphas turns to his cohorts and says something in Aramaic. The subtitle says, `You take care of it.' He's actually saying, `Take care of my laundry.'"
http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/movies/mmx-0403040033mar04,0,3912206.story?coll=mmx-movies_heds
S&T:
Why not ? .......he translated scripture mixed with the additions of men into Aramaic........
Well golly gee whiz... the change I have experienced in my life and my walk with God is totally bogus cuz frogman said so. How about that. Wait a minute... that would mean frogman is claiming to know more than God... </font>[/QUOTE]Don't put words in Frogman's mouth
My difficulty is in understanding why the word of God is not enough to have this effect on people, especially his people.
I never said anywhere that I knew more than God, I stated the ordained means for bringing the lost to the repentance and belief is by the preaching of the cross.
This movie with all its graphic imagery is not preaching the cross. It supposes Christ did a good work and has started a bank account that all other Catholic saints in line after the virgin mother have added to since. It supposes though perhaps not blatantly stated that Mary was united with the spirit of her son at the cross and even in eternity as the queen of heaven.
I am stating scripture you are offended so rather than admitting your argument is with the word of God you pretend I am claiming a greater wisdom than God.
That is your problem.
Bro. Dallas Eaton
For the same reason seeing the teacher work math problems on the board taught me when reading a book didn't. I am a visual learner.
Actually, it shows the physical sacrafice Jesus made for us on the cross. The few instances of catholic influence was not noticable except by 2 groups of people. Uptight Christians just begging for something to condemn and catholics. Oddly enough, my wife, raised by a southern baptist mom, a devout vat. II catholic stepmom, and an atheist dad didn't see all this anti-christ catholic brain washing so many claim exists in the movie. But I guess she is just another poor decieved lost soul.
You are the one stating God is not using this movie. You are claiming a greater wisdom than you have. I can prove God is using this movie using myself as an example. I have no problem with the Word of God. Talk about putting words in someone elses mouth.Originally posted by Frogman:
I am stating scripture you are offended so rather than admitting your argument is with the word of God you pretend I am claiming a greater wisdom than God.
Actually, my problem is with the self-promoting Christians who claim to have an absolute lock on the truth and then proceed to put themselves higher over their brothers and sisters in Christ and claim we are all decieved and have no discernment then go on to say we are just waiting to be followers of the anti-christ.
Dear Brother,
I will respond to your post in full later. Right now I have to go.
Until then try to understand that when you or I are taught the word of God, it is not the same teacher we each had in our math class. I experienced the same difficulty in those classes as you describe.
Bro. Dallas
I will respond to your post in full later. Right now I have to go.
Until then try to understand that when you or I are taught the word of God, it is not the same teacher we each had in our math class. I experienced the same difficulty in those classes as you describe.
Bro. Dallas
I've searched all over Genesis and I just can't find the term "conspiracy theory". I even had my computer do a search on it. I did find it in my "Bible Code" software that I quit using when I couldn't find my own name anywhar's in there. It was on the same page as: "Easter Bunny".
I am just joking, I hope you realize. I do see your point and I do agree with it.
Okay, let us say that I agree totally that nobody should see the movie. I could even do that, but let me ask you this...: Don't you think that since so many non-Christians HAVE seen the movie and WILL see the movie that we Christians ought to mobilize and at least USE that to explain the sacrifice Christ made for us? I'm not saying that we can't point out where there are errors in the movie, but, shouldn't I take that advantage that just might open the door for someone that would not ordinarily discuss Christ with me? If so, wouldn't that be "God" using it to his advantage?
Just curious?I do want to say that I respect you and your presentation of your beliefs and "on this board" I do have a tendency to jump over the rails a little too quickly, do in part to some people who make rash statements they cannot back up. Upon reading your posts, I do realize that, unlike many people who post, you have done your homework. I can appreciate that.
Folks are saying something along the lines---I went to see the movie---and . . . and . . . and I didn't SEE any Catholic theology----or---So & So is Catholic and he went and he said he didn't see any either! Or my preacher saw it and he said there ain't nothin' there to worry about---
Well folks! Ain't that the objective of the enemy?? To camoflage himself in such a way---that the advancing solder walks right on by---without even noticing?? The enemy will let the first men in point pass by and then engage the main column---look out!
I mean, the last thing that the 101st Airborne would want to do is to wear Florencent Orange---"Here we are over here!"
Indoctrination doesn't have to come in 55 gallon drums----you upset a 55 gallon drum of poison---the DEQ is gonna know about it----you let the doctrine out a drop at a time---and it won't concern ya till its too late---one drop of untruth added to the truth does what??? Somebody answer me!!!
Well folks! Ain't that the objective of the enemy?? To camoflage himself in such a way---that the advancing solder walks right on by---without even noticing?? The enemy will let the first men in point pass by and then engage the main column---look out!
I mean, the last thing that the 101st Airborne would want to do is to wear Florencent Orange---"Here we are over here!"
Indoctrination doesn't have to come in 55 gallon drums----you upset a 55 gallon drum of poison---the DEQ is gonna know about it----you let the doctrine out a drop at a time---and it won't concern ya till its too late---one drop of untruth added to the truth does what??? Somebody answer me!!!
Spirit and Truth
New Member
blackbird:
one drop of untruth added to the truth does what??? Somebody answer me!!!
S&T:
Like mixing chicken cordon bleu with chicken dung. Even though both are a "form" of chicken, it does not make for a tasty meal. The same goes for a "form" of godliness, as we are warned.
one drop of untruth added to the truth does what??? Somebody answer me!!!
S&T:
Like mixing chicken cordon bleu with chicken dung. Even though both are a "form" of chicken, it does not make for a tasty meal. The same goes for a "form" of godliness, as we are warned.
For the same reason seeing the teacher work math problems on the board taught me when reading a book didn't. I am a visual learner.
Frogman replies:
I am in the field of education and I understand what you are saying here, your point is well taken. But Paul (by the Holy Spirit) says we are to compare spiritual things to spiritual things, or that we are doing this. He also withstood those who taught a false gospel. What is presented in the word of God is not math, history or social concepts. I see no problem with assuming the research is invalid and arguing students do not learn in this way and therefore as an educator present the material in as many diverse methods as possible.
This is not what is happening when the word of God is presented. My point is that our teacher must be the Holy Spirit. If we bring in the various theories of learning and apply these to the ordained means by which God has established, then we find ourselves in the end to end up with heresy. In the end, I believe all the elect will be brought to a knowledge of their sin nature and therefore will repent and believe. I do not believe this occurs through the means of mixing error with truth. When ever you have a basket of apples and one is rotting, you never see the good apples convert or bring the bad apple back. This movie does not represent the means God has ordained by his word, even if it lacked the heresies of Catholicism I would say at best it could make the greatest number of folks aware of the gospel, but it is not the preached word. The problem with the church today is that we have (and I say we) bought into the philosophies of the world and have become convinced that we must use any means necessary to attract folks to the message. When this does happen folks may come for the fellowship in the human brotherhood, but it is only by the power of God that individuals are made accepted in Christ Jesus. When they do come in the power of man’s persuasion there is no root in them because they are established, and built up by emotionalism. Their Christian experience is void of the power of God.
Regarding math class, I always had difficulty because my first year algebra teacher presented multiple ways of working the problems and arriving at the truth of the equation. By the time this was completed I had no idea what was going on. Then later I had a teacher who showed only and received only one way, I had not the foundation of knowledge needed to help me understand this either. I managed to get through math class with help from a good friend in doing my daily assignments, on tests I was on my own and I almost always failed these knowing only my name, the current date and the time of the exam.
Do you understand the analogy? Even though I was later presented with the one way, my mind had previously been polluted with the ‘multiple ways’. This is the precise message of the prince of the power of the air and the message received in the world. As Christians we ought to be able to recognize these things and see the appearance of good being accomplished is not always a result in the truth being established. This movie presents a portrait resembling the Christ of God, but it includes those falsehoods taught by those who are in grave error. When folks receive this as an authority and these images are burned upon their mind (ref. Billy Graham’s statement on this page) these images become to them powerful associations of reality. At best this movie should have been recognized as merely a movie. To propose it to be the greatest evangelical tool to bring the masses to Christ is next to the error of baptismal regeneration. This is the same error bought by believers under the law of Constantine requiring all subjects of the Roman Empire to receive Christian baptism. The same error which gave rise to the Jezebel who has taught God’s people to commit adultery by adding man made rituals and supposing sacraments to be the means of Grace. This system denies much of what you as a child of God will hold dear from the word of God and as found in His Word. Because of this I oppose it as anything to be perceived as the least bit useful in either the preaching of the gospel and most especially the salvation of the lost.
Actually, it shows the physical sacrafice Jesus made for us on the cross. The few instances of catholic influence was not noticable except by 2 groups of people. Uptight Christians just begging for something to condemn and catholics. Oddly enough, my wife, raised by a southern baptist mom, a devout vat. II catholic stepmom, and an atheist dad didn't see all this anti-christ catholic brain washing so many claim exists in the movie. But I guess she is just another poor decieved lost soul.
Frogman replies:
A Vatican II step-mom would not recognize these errors since Mel is in opposition to her very beliefs. Mel is a traditionalist catholic. I am not begging for something to condemn. I am not condemning anyone, least of all Mel. He stated in an interview on either the Today show or Good Morning America that his wife is a protestant, thus by his belief she cannot be saved, she is outside the church. This places salvation in a false location, thus setting up a false Christ. He stated that he believed this and he had to answer the question in accordance to his beliefs. I respect anyone who knows, understands what they believe and still answers in accordance to that conviction. This is what Christians who oppose this film are likewise engaged in. I certainly did not request for this movie to be made, so your supposition that those opposing it are merely searching for something to condemn is wrong. I have a respect for you in so much as you are willing to discuss and show a defense for the reasons you support the film. The southern Baptist mom should have recognized it, but when you remember not too many years ago the southern Baptist entered into ecumenical talks with the RC and they decided we basically held the same beliefs, it is understandable why such a person would not recognize the differences. A brief study of what the RC declares in its catechism will help anyone to see the truth regardless of the lies they will meet you with when questioned. Just as Mel said, so will they say, I believe these things, therefore I must confess them. The atheist dad answers for itself.
I never said anyone in support of the movie was a lost soul, deceived I would say it is very likely, but lost is a very different position. Remember Paul said it is good to be zealous in a good thing. Do you think Paul as Saul was wrong in persecuting the Christian church? Why? He was zealous in his religion. But he was zealous for the wrong cause. The Jewish religion is a dead religion. As a Pharisee Paul recognized God (the true living God), he believed in the resurrection, but he despised those who taught these things in the name of Christ. I believe the Judaizers especially hated anyone teaching these things accomplished through Christ. This shows us the strategy of satan has not been to openly deny Christ, but to deceive the world in regards to the Christ of God. Now, to be openly in denial of Christ would mean Mel’s movie depicts the Bhudda or some religion like that, instead the movie incorporates this idea received by many that the promise of God to Abraham, even before to Adam is true, but includes efforts to cloud the Christ of God and thereby to establish a false Christ.
You are the one stating God is not using this movie. You are claiming a greater wisdom than you have. I can prove God is using this movie using myself as an example. I have no problem with the Word of God. Talk about putting words in someone elses mouth.Originally posted by Frogman:
I am stating scripture you are offended so rather than admitting your argument is with the word of God you pretend I am claiming a greater wisdom than God.
Frogman replies:
God uses what He has ordained to use. He needs no help from this graphic mixture of error and truth. God is glorified when His Son is glorified and not when this glory is shared with any other. In fact, God said he would not share his glory with another. Now, the mixture of catholic doctrine in this movie attempts to share this glory with Mary.
My mother in law told me the same thing, how the lives of her and my wife’s dad have been changed by this film and how they now have a better understanding of what it means to take communion. I have not seen the movie, so I don’t know what the reference is talking about, but I do know the meaning of the Eucharist in the theology of a catholic and it is false hood, it is in this error that they have bound countless numbers of souls to the greater evils they teach for fear of excommunication from this table and teaching which is of their own design. If Paul were here today I believe he too would stand against this movie and I believe he would even declare those who serve still at the altar (carrying on the dead priesthood of the Jews etc) have no place at the altar at which we serve, nor at that table.
Christ alone has become the altar and the mercy seat over and above which God meets with his people. This is personal and never handed between a priesthood to the people, not since the veil of the Temple was rent signifying an open way to the Holy of Holies.
Actually, my problem is with the self-promoting Christians who claim to have an absolute lock on the truth and then proceed to put themselves higher over their brothers and sisters in Christ and claim we are all decieved and have no discernment then go on to say we are just waiting to be followers of the anti-christ. </font>[/QUOTE]Frogman replies:
I am not engaged in self promotion. This is the employment of publicists in Hollywood and also the activity of those who do not trust the presentation of the gospel as given in the word of God.
This movie represents a false gospel and as Christians we should have enough discernment to not embrace it and make claims for it that it cannot uphold.
Bro. Dallas Eaton