Reasons why the average church congregation is only 89

[Dave G]

Yes, church members had fellowship with each other over meals in homes. But they worshiped and received teachings in specific buildings set aside for that purpose.

"they were with one accord in the temple."

"They met on Solomon's porch."

"They entered the temple."

That is not a house-based church.

To me, you've just described the Jewish believers right after Pentecost, and what they were doing at Jerusalem... before they were scattered and before the Gentile believers really began to grow in numbers through Paul ( and others ) spreading the Gospel.

But even then, the Jews were meeting in houses.

Then check what's written about the Philippians and many others.
Paul went from house to house, encouraging them.

Let's look in the Bible for these small, house churches.

" And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart," ( Acts of the Apostles 2:46 ).

"And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ." ( Acts of the Apostles 5:42 ).

" And they went out of the prison, and entered into [the house of] Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed." ( Acts of the Apostles 16:40 ).

" [and] how I kept back nothing that was profitable [unto you], but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house," ( Acts of the Apostles 20:20 ).

" Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4 who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epænetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ." ( Romans 16:3-5 ).

" The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house." ( 1 Corinthians 16:19 ).

" Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house." ( Colossians 4:15 ).

" And to [our] beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:" ( Philemon 1:2 ).


May God's blessings be rich towards you and yours, sir.

 

[JoeT]

The "protester's way" was the way long before man-made temples became the norm, sir.

God dwells in temples not made with hands.

The Church is the house of the Lord. "Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." [1 Peter 2:5]

Our Pope says Living Stones are being set in the mortar of truth every day. What does your Pope say?

JoeT

 

[Dave G]

What does your Pope say?

My Pope is Jesus Christ the Lord.
I listen to whatever He says.

Also, if you'll notice what you just posted for Scriptural support ( 1 Peter 2:5 ), the "church" is a spiritual building made up of lively "stones"...believers.
It is not a physical entity on some street corner.

 

[1689Dave]

Down in Bluefield, WV; First Baptist church started probably about a dozen churches in the Greater Bluefield area
(Population, about 20 - 25,000 )

This seems to be the NT model.

 

[Adonia]

why churches dont grow past 200?

Could be once they get to around 150 - the church will take 25-30 people to plant a new church!

You also can't dismiss the fact that when there is a disagreement within the congregation, people just go off and start their own church.

 

[Particular]

The big churches who are doing it right have enough staff to look after the members.

Your comment points toward a significant problem in the church.
We have people coming to churches as consumers who demand a response to their wants. The church staff become the producers that provide the wants for the consumer.
In a healthy church, the community of believers cares for its members. When one part is hurting, the others are hurting. When one part is struggling with sin, the others are working to assist against the struggle.
The church functions like a body (1 Corinthians 12). We are a corporate body. But, we live in a very, very individualistic society that is all about...self.

 

[Revmitchell]

Your comment points toward a significant problem in the church.
We have people coming to churches as consumers who demand a response to their wants. The church staff become the producers that provide the wants for the consumer.
In a healthy church, the community of believers cares for its members.

You are arguing in a vacumm no one claims this except you

 

[Salty]

You also can't dismiss the fact that when there is a disagreement within the congregation, people just go off and start their own church.

I absolutely agree - provided they are a congregational church. (ie - A roman catholic could not do so)

How do large churches induce small churches to "merge" with them - by offering all these different programs.
Some of these churches have so many programs going - some probally cant even keep up with it.

I think it is ridiculous for people to drive 40, 50, 60 even 80 miles to attend a mega-church.

Also, I contend that some people love mega churches because they can get lost in the crowd, and not have to be involved.

Before I got married - my wife was attending a mega-church. Afterwards, we went to my small (60 or so) SBC church. A few weeks later
we invited the pastor over for Sunday Dinner. Mrs. Salty said that probably would never happen at her previous church.

One other thing - why did people meet in homes in the NT - well for one thing - everyone lived in the enclosed city -close to everyone else.

 

[rockytopva]

The old Freewill Baptist church I used to being to literally ceased to exist. Wonderfully loving people I wish I could go back in time. They used to invite me to come eat with them on Sundays and the feeling was very much like family.

 

[InTheLight]

Your comment points toward a significant problem in the church.
We have people coming to churches as consumers who demand a response to their wants. The church staff become the producers that provide the wants for the consumer.

What are some of these things that you perceive church consumers demand?

 

[Particular]

You are arguing in a vacumm no one claims this except you

You must not be well read. This issue is being addressed in many books and journals.

 

[Revmitchell]

You must not be well read. This issue is being addressed in many books and journals.

So you are not arguing with anyone here you want to argue with books you have read?

 

[Particular]

What are some of these things that you perceive church consumers demand?

Entertainment
Relevant to their experience
Feel good...no judgment
Inclusive relationship
...just to name a few.

 

[Reynolds]

I was saying more of a debate as to whether or not that is biblical. Not if "it works"

Entertainment
Relevant to their experience
Feel good...no judgment
Inclusive relationship
...just to name a few.

No, that's what people who attend "seeker sensitive" churches seem to want. I want a fundamental firebrand who preaches Hell at least 20 times a year.

 

[InTheLight]

Entertainment

Please be specific. What is "wrong" entertainment? After all, an Easter cantata is entertainment. So is a soloist, duet or a trio. Or an orchestral accompaniment. Or a children's Christmas play.

Relevant to their experience

What is inherently wrong with this?

Feel good...no judgment

Yep, that's a problem.

Inclusive relationship

What is this? Seriously, I have no idea what this is in the context of church or a church service.

 

[InTheLight]

No, that's what people who attend "seeker sensitive" churches seem to want. I want a fundamental firebrand who preaches Hell at least 20 times a year.

Preach on Hell twenty times a year? You mean as a sermon topic? That's kind of excessive, IMO. As a regular term used to describe the final destination of sinners, yes, I agree.

I have an acid test. The preacher must use the word "sin" instead of watered down terms like "moral failure" or "soul cancer" or some other euphemism. I must hear the terms "hell" or "hellfire" and not just "eternal condemnation" or "separation from God for eternity". I must hear the term "repent" on a regular basis when it relates to salvation, not ambiguous terms like "accept Christ" or "become a Christ follower" (though there isn't really anything wrong with those terms in and of themselves, I just gotta hear "repent".)

 

[atpollard]

I work in Commercial Land Development and once had a long chat with an expert on Church Growth for Metropolitan Ministries. My question was why there were so many really small churches and a few really large churches but few if any medium size churches. He explained that it was partially a matter of economic stability.

A church of less than 200 people probably has only a single pastor and may have one other paid employee. That is about the limit on the number of families that one pastor can keep personal tabs on and minister to and that church population can support that minimal level of staffing. Things like Teachers and Music Ministry will all be volunteer positions.

The next level of stability is a church with more than one pastor and a full time secretary and a paid youth minister and a paid music minister. This sort of church can provide a variety of programs to meet the needs of a variety of different groups. The minimum congregation required to financially support even a small multi-person staff is about 750 to 800 people. Above 800 people the church can afford to expand its staff.

He had observed a zone of instability between 250 and 750 people. Any church this size is too large for one pastor to manage alone, but can not afford the staff needed to meet all of the special interests that expect a staff member. Churches in this size are typically either growing towards 800 people and stability, or declining and will continue to decline until the membership falls below 200.

Take from his observations whatever you wish. I found them enlightening.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Can someone come up with some definitions? What is small? What is medium, large, mega, etc.? Hard to understand without some definitions.

Here, it would be difficult to have a very small church (less than 100) due to costs - buildings, land, etc.

We have one church in our immediate area that is a mega-church. Multiple campuses throughout the city. Sermons are shown on video unless you are at the home campus. Their home campus has many services on Sunday and one on Saturday evening.

 

[Particular]

I work in Commercial Land Development and once had a long chat with an expert on Church Growth for Metropolitan Ministries. My question was why there were so many really small churches and a few really large churches but few if any medium size churches. He explained that it was partially a matter of economic stability.

A church of less than 200 people probably has only a single pastor and may have one other paid employee. That is about the limit on the number of families that one pastor can keep personal tabs on and minister to and that church population can support that minimal level of staffing. Things like Teachers and Music Ministry will all be volunteer positions.

The next level of stability is a church with more than one pastor and a full time secretary and a paid youth minister and a paid music minister. This sort of church can provide a variety of programs to meet the needs of a variety of different groups. The minimum congregation required to financially support even a small multi-person staff is about 750 to 800 people. Above 800 people the church can afford to expand its staff.

He had observed a zone of instability between 250 and 750 people. Any church this size is too large for one pastor to manage alone, but can not afford the staff needed to meet all of the special interests that expect a staff member. Churches in this size are typically either growing towards 800 people and stability, or declining and will continue to decline until the membership falls below 200.

Take from his observations whatever you wish. I found them enlightening.

Interesting. I attend a church of approximately 250. We have three full-time pastor's, one former pastor as a volunteer, and a full-time administrative assistant.
My church is healthy and people who financially support the church. Apparently my church is an outlier.

 

[atpollard]

Interesting. I attend a church of approximately 250. We have three full-time pastor's, one former pastor as a volunteer, and a full-time administrative assistant.
My church is healthy and people who financially support the church. Apparently my church is an outlier.

I tend to like numbers and statistics. So here is an old rule of thumb ...

Remember the 80/20 rule? ... 20% of the people do 80% of the work.

It tends towards a truism for any organization or group. I will leave it to active or former pastors to comment on whether or not 20% of the givers give 80% of the offering, but just for conversation let us assume that it is so. That means that 1 Pastor needs 10 "Tithers" just to bring in his salary so he can be a full-time pastor. However, from other commercial endeavors (and like it or not, a Church has bills to pay) SALARIES are only about 1/3 of total expenses. That means our hypothetical full-time pastor actually needs 30 tithers to support his full-time salary and the expenses of the sanctuary and administrative costs like taxes and fees (some things are exempt and some things are not). Since there are 4 non-tithers for every tither (based on the simple 80/20 assumption), the 30 tithers that support the pastor and sanctuary are hidden in a congregation of 150 giving units (households). The average household has about 3 people, so assuming that just 2 people per average household attend, that places the congregation at 300 people with about 150 to 200 at any given Sunday service.

Four full time staff members require 40 tithers (120 people in 40 typical families) just to cover salaries.

Your church is either ...

• VERY GOOD tithers.
• Has a wealthy benefactor.
• Your Pastors are on Foodstamps.

I, of course, have no idea which and am rooting for "Good Tithers".

The numbers do suggest why there are so many small churches with Pastors that work a second Job (or collect an income from some outside source).