Reasons why the Bible teaches a Pretribulational rapture

[DHK]

So! Was Jesus Christ God or was He not? He told the unbelieving Jews just as He tells some doubtful on this Forum: John 10:30. I and my Father are one.



Before His crucifixion Jesus Christ told God the Father: John 17:4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

So obviously HE did not come to establish a Messianic Kingdom or the above statement is not true. Need I remind you that God cannot lie!

Are you saying that Christ as deity and Christ as Messiah are two different things?
Are you saying that "the Messiah" is not deity?
Your post makes no sense.

In John 17, Jesus was in the Upper Room with his disciples. In John 18:1,2 he leaves the upper room and once he crosses the brook Cedron he is betrayed shortly thereafter by Judas. He had finished teh work which the Father had given him to do because by that time, the Jews had already rejected the Kingdom. Judas had already left the Upper Room with inten to betray him. The Jews had already laid out their plans to kill him. Everything was set in motion. They had already rejected the Kingdom which had been offered them.

 

[OldRegular]

In an attempt to help DHK understand my remarks below I present the post from beameup to which I responded!

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,
that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36

"but now"

It is surprising to note that some simply don't understand that Jesus didn't know "everything" during his ministry.
He was subject to the Father and spoke the words the Father gave him to speak... and revelation to him was "progressive".

"He came unto his own" - the Jews - with the message that the Kingdom of Heaven was here to be established on earth, if they would receive Him.

Originally Posted by OldRegular
So! Was Jesus Christ God or was He not? He told the unbelieving Jews just as He tells some doubtful on this Forum: John 10:30. I and my Father are one.



Before His crucifixion Jesus Christ told God the Father: John 17:4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

So obviously HE did not come to establish a Messianic Kingdom or the above statement is not true. Need I remind you that God cannot lie!

Are you saying that Christ as deity and Christ as Messiah are two different things?
Are you saying that "the Messiah" is not deity?
Your post makes no sense.

If you cannot understand what the above Scripture states then what more can I say. beameup states that the knowledge of Jesus Christ was limited. I am trying to get beameup to understand that Jesus Christ is God and what God the Father knows then God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit know. I hope that helps!

In John 17, Jesus was in the Upper Room with his disciples. In John 18:1,2 he leaves the upper room and once he crosses the brook Cedron he is betrayed shortly thereafter by Judas. He had finished teh work which the Father had given him to do because by that time, the Jews had already rejected the Kingdom. Judas had already left the Upper Room with inten to betray him. The Jews had already laid out their plans to kill him. Everything was set in motion. They had already rejected the Kingdom which had been offered them.

If Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom HE failed. Therefore, HE could not have said what He did in John 17:4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

But Jesus Christ did not come to establish an earthly kingdom, HE came to establish a Spiritual Kingdom, the Church, and HE died for the Church and finished the work God gave Him to do!

The Jews rejected Him because they wanted Him to throw off the yoke of Rome and reestablish the Kingdom of David. In their rejection they conspired with Rome to crucify Jesus Christ.

Following is the final judgment of Israel pronounced by Jesus Christ:

Matthew 21:42-44
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

 

[Yeshua1]

In an attempt to help DHK understand my remarks below I present the post from beameup to which I responded!





If you cannot understand what the above Scripture states then what more can I say. beameup states that the knowledge of Jesus Christ was limited. I am trying to get beameup to understand that Jesus Christ is God and what God the Father knows then God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit know. I hope that helps!



If Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom HE failed. Therefore, HE could not have said what He did in John 17:4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

But Jesus Christ did not come to establish an earthly kingdom, HE came to establish a Spiritual Kingdom, the Church, and HE died for the Church and finished the work God gave Him to do!

The Jews rejected Him because they wanted Him to throw off the yoke of Rome and reestablish the Kingdom of David. In their rejection they conspired with Rome to crucify Jesus Christ.

Following is the final judgment of Israel pronounced by Jesus Christ:

Matthew 21:42-44
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Guess that God did not get that memo though, as paul stated that God has not forever cast away Isreal, and John saw a 144,000 out from national isreal sealed by him in the last days!

 

[beameup]

If Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom HE failed.

But Jesus Christ did not come to establish an earthly kingdom, HE came to establish a Spiritual Kingdom, the Church, and HE died for the Church and finished the work God gave Him to do!

I suppose then that poor old Peter was so completely confused when he said:
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:13-15

And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Acts 3:17-18

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21

So poor old Apostle Peter thought that God would send Jesus Christ back to earth to "refresh" it and "restore" it.
The poor deluded fisherman thought that God was going to establish a Kingdom on the earth.

 

[OldRegular]

I suppose then that poor old Peter was so completely confused when he said:
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:13-15

And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Acts 3:17-18

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21

So poor old Apostle Peter thought that God would send Jesus Christ back to earth to "refresh" it and "restore" it.
The poor deluded fisherman thought that God was going to establish a Kingdom on the earth.

I believe you are the one who is deluded not Peter!

 

[DHK]

If Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom HE failed. Therefore, HE could not have said what He did in John 17:4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

But Jesus Christ did not come to establish an earthly kingdom, HE came to establish a Spiritual Kingdom, the Church, and HE died for the Church and finished the work God gave Him to do!

The Jews rejected Him because they wanted Him to throw off the yoke of Rome and reestablish the Kingdom of David. In their rejection they conspired with Rome to crucify Jesus Christ. [/quote]
I explained this to you before.
Jesus was praying his great high priestly in the Upper Room. Judas had already left. He had gone to betray Jesus. Immediately after the prayer they left the Upper Room (John 18:1,2). And soon after that Jesus was betrayed into wicked hands. The Kingdom had already been rejected. Your scripture is thus irrelevant.
He had finished the work because the Kingdom had already been rejected.

Following is the final judgment of Israel pronounced by Jesus Christ:

Matthew 21:42-44
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

You are backtracking in chronlogy. He said this on Palm Sunday, one week before his resurrection, or just a few days before his crucifixion. Still the plans were already set in motion to kill him.
He is speaking of the Jewish leadership, the Sanhedrin. He is not speaking of the entire nation. There is still a remnant.
So then all Israel shall be saved. After the cross all the Jews (such as the 3,000 on the Day of Pentecost) would have to come to Christ the same way we do.
There is coming a day when Israel as a nation will turn to Christ. They are set aside for a season. But God has not forgotten about them and his promises to them. The promises to Israel were not given to us.

 

[OldRegular]

Guess that God did not get that memo though, as paul stated that God has not forever cast away Isreal, and John saw a 144,000 out from national isreal sealed by him in the last days!

You need to study what Paul really said!

Romans 9:6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

If you read the following you will find part of Israel missing. You will also see that Judah is counted twice. The lesson is: Don't try to apply a literal interpretation to apocalyptic language!

Revelation 7:4-8
4. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Way past limit but lots of good sarcasm. Hate to close it. But will.

IF there is part of this topic you still feel needs discussion, start a new thread.