Rebuttal of an Article on Jn. 6:44 by Dr. Flowers

[utilyan]

There is no "universal brick wall" against the Bible...

One either understands it, or they do not.
The command of God is the command of God.
All men are fully responsible to obey their Creator.

Is it a sin not to come to Jesus?
Yes ( John 16:8-11 ).

Then how does a person get out from under committing this sin?
They don't.
God does it.
He chooses someone, and they then "see" Christ at some point in their life during the preaching of the Gospel ( because God reveals Himself to whom He will...Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22 ) and they then believe on Him.

In other words, there is no remedy for our sins, except to receive the gift of eternal life from God, who gives it to whomever He wishes; Not to whomever we wish ( John 1:13 ).



God commands all to love Him and to love their neighbor...yet, none will actually do this apart from God changing a person's heart.

There is not a heart on earth that can beat itself without God doing it for him. I don't even remember turning any wheels for my next thought.

I'm not interested in anyone's capacity here

I'm pointing at the COMMAND OF GOD. Which indicates his sincere will, want and desire.

You are walking around the question I put so ill place it again.

If to my face God declares he commands ALL MANKIND not to sin, would I be insane, unreasonable, for having the tiniest spark, the smallest inkling ,a far fetched suspicion that he DESIRES and WANTS all mankind not to sin?


I don't attribute and accuse insincerity, deception or fake declarations to God. So to be clear I'm talking about ACTUAL desires I'm talking about what he really wants.

 

[utilyan]

I completely understand your view. However, that is not the view of Christ and it can be shown clearly what view Christ held by the prophets he quoted to explain his view in John 6:45. He is citing Isaiah 54;13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 which describes an internal work of God that writes his law upon their hearts effectually bringing them to faith in "ALL" he draws in this manner. "ALL" drawn in this manner are called "ALL thy children" (Isa. 54:13) under the new covenant (Jer. 31:33-34/Heb. 10:8-13)

So, this drawing is the INTERNAL WORK of God ALONE as no one can operate inside of man (Jer.31:33) and it is always effectual in bringing them to faith in God (Jer. 31:34) ALL of them "from the least of them to the greatest of them".

So, Jesus is continuing to talk about "ALL" that the Father had given him in John 6:37-39 as only these become willing to believe on him (Jn. 6:40) because the Father draw them (Jn. 6:44) in the manner described by the prophets (Jn. 6:45; Isa. 54:13; Jer. 31:33-34) which are the New Covenant children (Isa. 54:13; Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 8:10-13) and those in John 6:36 and 6:64 were never given to the Son by the Father and never drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:65).

John 12

32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

"ALL"

If your son eats ALL the cookies whats left for you to eat?

 

[The Biblicist]

Using your ideas, maybe jn3:5 is only spoken to Nicodemus.
He is a man,so Jesus did say to him except a man be born again....so

Ezekiel 44:7-9 demonstrates the new birth was required by God prior to John 3:3. Nicodemus was rebuked by Christ for his ignorance about new birth. Jesus used the metaphor of birth to more easily convey the same truth which previously was conveyed by the metaphors of circumcision and ceremonial washing.

 

[Iconoclast]

John 12

32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

"ALL"

If your son eats ALL the cookies whats left for you to eat?

When Jesus went to the cross, millions were already dead, How were all the dead drawn?
When Jesus was on the cross, people around the world were dying that very week, how were they drawn having never heard of Jesus?

 

[The Biblicist]

But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

In John 6:36-40 Christ asserts that those Jews who sought him for food, "have seen" him but believed not (v. 36) but ALL the Father gives him "shall come to me" and not one that The father giveth shall fail to come to him and not one that comes shall fail to be saved (vv. 37-39) but every single one of them shall come to him in faith. This is indisputable as the text clearly demands the same “ALL” given equals the same “ALL” that come equals the same “ALL” saved.
Let us first explore the relationship between the act of the Father in giving with the act of coming in faith to Christ.

The Father’s act of giving precedes the act of coming by all the Father gives. In verse 37 “giveth” is present tense while “shall come” is future tense proving the action of giving precedes the action of coming. However, by how much time does God’s action of giving occur prior to the action of Coming. That is answered in verses 38-39. In verses 38-39 the action of giving precedes Christ’s act of incarnation as Christ says that his coming down in heaven (v. 38) was in response to the Father already having “given” (v. 39) such to the Son. Christ uses the perfect tense translated “have given” in verse 39 demonstrating the act of giving by the Father stood as a completed action that stood completed at the time Christ descended from heaven. This places the Father’s act of giving not only prior to the action of “all” these coming to Christ in faith, but prior to the incarnation. How long before the incarnation? The Father cannot give a definite “all” unless he first choose them out from all others so giving is consequential to choosing and choosing refers to the elect “from before the foundation of the world” (Eph.1:4). Indeed, the “elect” are the only people designated prior to the incarnation where “ALL” will be saved. If you think not, then provide chapter and verse for any all designated people prior to the incarnation that “ALL” will be saved???

Moreover, because giving precedes the action of coming, therefore COMING TO HIM CANNOT BE THE CAUSE FOR HAVING BEEN GIVEN TO HIM AS TAUGHT BY THOSE WHO TEACH THAT GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE IS MERE FORESIGHT OF FUTURE ACTIONS (COMING TO CHRIST BY FAITH). Instead, foreknowledge is based on previous action by God in the form of eternal purpose as this is the precise order given by Paul in Romans 8:28-29. God works all things according to his eternal purpose (v. 28) and there God knows before hand all that will occur not due to foresight but due to purpose (v. 29).

Now, lets consider the contextual relationship between “all” those given by the Father in verses 37-39 and “all” who will be taught of God in verse 45. Are they the same “all”? Verse 45 is given as an explanation of what another work of God means (“draw”) in verse 44. In verses 37-39 we have the certainty that ALL given will ALL come to Christ and will ALL be saved. However, verses 37-39 does not provide us with HOW that will be accomplished and made certain.

First, the final phrase in John 6:44 is first found in verses 39-40 which would demonstrate Jesus is continuing to speak about the very same people (all given by the Father who all come and all be saved). Second, the prophets quoted by Jesus in verse 45 are Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 as an explanation for what it means that “ALL” will be taught by God. Those in Isaiah 54:13 are identified as “ALL thy children” rather than all of mankind. Moreover, according to Jeremiah that very same “ALL” are effectually taught by God so that ALL come to know God and ALL become the people of God “from the least of them unto the greatest” of this same “ALL” so not one of that “ALL” perish. Jeremiah 31:31-34 is quoted by Paul in Hebrews 8:10-13 and in Hebrews 10 as descriptive of the “new” covenant and thus descriptive of ALL the new covenant people of God.

Second, “no man can come” apart from this second work of God (first work described as giving) - v.44. Hence, verses 44-45 describes the divine work of the Father that explains HOW all given by the Father effectually come to the Son so that not one of that ALL “shall perish.”

Third, we have examples provided by Christ of those who were never given and never drawn by the Father proving once again that “ALL” refers to a restricted number of mankind.

For example, those Jews described in verse 36 are said to “have seen” Christ but never come to him in faith whereas in immediate direct contrast to them, (vv. 37-39) “ALL” the Father gives do effectually come to Christ and be saved and so, they cannot be part of that “ALL” who are given because all given come. Thus, they cannot be part of those who see and believe in verse 40 as the only ones who see and believe in Christ are part of that same “all” given in verses 37-39. Those described in verse 40 are those given to him by the Father that shall not be lost in verse 39 as the final clause in verse 39 is repeated as the final clause in verse 40 demonstrating that the “anyone” (Gr. pas = “all”) are the same “all” described in verses 37-39. Hence, Jesus is telling those in verse 36 of whom he said "saw and believe not" that they are not part of those given to him by the Father as "ALL" given by the Father to him do see and do believe.

For example, those professed believers described in John 6:64 cannot be part of “all” given in John 6:37-39 or “all” taught (drawn) by the Father in John 6:44-45 because they remained in unbelief “from the beginning” proving their confession was false because Jesus gives as the reason their continuing in unbelief to be “ except it” (the Father’s work in drawing or effectually enabling) had never “given” unto them (v. 65). Again, proving that the work of the Father giving and drawing are not universal in nature but restrictive to the elect (those given the Son from the foundation of the world).

Therefore, Jesus the very same “all” Jesus speaks about in verses 37-40 is the very same “all” he continues to speak about in verses 44-45 and 65. In verses 37-39 and verses44-45 he is describing what he calls the “work of God” in verse 29 that is necessary to bring the covenant people to God by coming in faith to Jesus Christ. So, John 6:44-45 explains HOW God brings them to faith in Christ, while verses 37-39 declare God’s purpose that they will all come to faith in Christ and not be lost because Christ came down to fulfill that revealed purpose of God.
So, John 6 restricts it to the covenant people of God through the covenant work of God.

However, the Jews would interpret that is being restricted to Jews only or an ethnic covenant that excludes Gentiles. Acts 10-15 proves this was a real problem even among the churches as they thought Gentiles had to become Jews. Therefore, in John 12:20-32 Jesus does not deny it is restricted to the covenant people of God but denies this work is restricted to Jews only or is only an ethnic work of God.

Certain “Greeks” came to see Jesus which caused a commotion among the disciples of Christ because as Peter later says it was unlawful for Jews to fellowship with Gentiles (Acts 10:39). It is from this back drop of INCLUSION OF GENTILES into fellowship with Jewish believers and Christ that John 6:32 applies. Jesus said that he would draw “all men” to him. This phrase in the Greek text is without the definite article and may legitimately be understood to mean “all kinds/classes of men.”

So, Jesus is not being inconsistent with his restrictive use of “all” in John 6 with regard to both the giving and drawing work of God but is denying this work is further restricted to Jews only but inclusive to all races/classes/gender of mankind.

Thus, John 6:37-39 gives the eternal cause for coming to faith (divine election that gives them to the son) and gives the consequence in time “shall come to me” but John 6:44-45 identifies the work of God IN TIME that produces what God purpose and what we see as the effect.

 

[The Biblicist]

When Jesus went to the cross, millions were already dead, How were all the dead drawn?
When Jesus was on the cross, people around the world were dying that very week, how were they drawn having never heard of Jesus?

The saving work of Christ preceded the cross. We have been talking about that faith or coming to Christ is the work of God giving and drawing them. Abraham is proof positive that this work of God producing faith preceded the cross. Hebrews 11 proves God's work of producing faith being the "author and finisher" (12:2) preceded the cross. The cross merely provided the legal basis, but God applied it according to promise that the legal basis would be provided.

 

[Dave G]

You are walking around the question I put so ill place it again.

Scripture has the answers...but it seems you're not able to understand them.
I'm not "walking around" anything; I'm answering based on all that I see in God's word;
Regrettably, there are parts that you seem to take exception to.

If to my face God declares he commands ALL MANKIND not to sin, would I be insane, unreasonable, for having the tiniest spark, the smallest inkling ,a far fetched suspicion that he DESIRES and WANTS all mankind not to sin?

You're not insane, from my perspective;
God does not want men to sin.

He wants men to seek Him, if perhaps they may find Him, and to repent ( Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31 ) .
But God's word does not stop there.
To me, it seems that you're stuck on this idea that if God wants all men to repent, then they should be able to repent...but the Bible also has an answer for that:

Mankind will not repent because they love sin and hate God ( Romans 1:18-32, John 3:19-20 ).
We've already covered this many times now, since I've been on this forum, yet the Scriptures themselves are not enough to convince you, apparently.

 

[Dave G]

I don't attribute and accuse insincerity, deception or fake declarations to God. So to be clear I'm talking about ACTUAL desires I'm talking about what he really wants.

And I'm trying to point out Scriptures that just are as relevant as others are.

To me, your apparent desire for a clear-cut answer to the question should be based on all of God's word, not parts of it.
His word doesn't stop at stating that he commands all men to repent...it also tells us more about man's hard heart, and why we won't repent.
Parts of God's word do not give us the complete picture; all of it does.

For example:

Acts of the Apostles 13:48 is just as much the word of God as John 3:16 is.
Romans 8:29-30 is just as much the word of God as Revelation 3:20 is.

Take all of it together, and try not to ignore or condition any of it in favor of any of the rest of it.

32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

"ALL"

If your son eats ALL the cookies whats left for you to eat?

" All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." ( John 6:37 )

All that the Father gives to Christ shall come to Him...

ALL.

If God the Father gives all men to Christ, then they ALL will come to Him.

 

[Van]

“NNE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS THEM, AND I WILL RAISE THEMUP AT THE LAST DAY.” – JOHN 6:44
There are two basic ways to interpret this passage and it hinges on the words “draws” and “them.” Let’s look at the two renderings side by side:

Calvinists: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me *drags* them, and I will raise up *those who were dragged* at the last day.”

Traditionalists: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me *enables* them, and I will raise up *those who come* at the last day.”

The Greek sentence structure allows for the author to be referencing “them” who come, not necessarily all those drawn. For instance if the sentence translated in English were structured in this manner the intention might be more obvious:

“Only those drawn by the Father may come, and I will raise up them (those that come) at the last day.” - Dr. Leighton Flowers

The first problem I have with the beginning of this article is an improper translation of the verse. Since, Bro. Flowers offers no source for his translation I can only speculate it is some kind of paraphrase translation.

There is no plural "them..them" in the Majority Greek text nor is there any plural "those" in the Majority Greek text. The Greek text has the masculine accustive singular "autov" in both cases which is properly translated "him....him" by the KJV. The term he translates as "those" is the singular "oudeis" and literally means "no one" or "no man" since it is in the masculine gender.

The second problem I have is his statement "The Greek sentence structure allows for the author to be referrencing 'them' who come, not necessarily all those drawn."

Strictly speaking the nearest grammatical antecedent for the "him" of the second clause is the "him" in the first clause which is confined to only those drawn by the Father. The only other noun or pronoun is "oudeis" and that represents those who cannot come to Christ. Hence, the natural reading of the text and grammar defines "him" in the second clause not only to be restricted to "him" of the first clause but the very same "him" of the first clause. This is further inferred by the repeated use the very same final clause by Christ which is first used in John 6:39, then 6:40, then 6:44 and finally in 6:54. In all other cases the pronoun in that final clause is not only restricted to, but inclusive of ALL who have just been previously defined. For example, in John 6:39 the pronoun is restricted to but inclusive of "all" who are given as all given do not fail to come to Christ. In John 6:40 the pronoun in this clause refers to "all" (Gr. pas translated "everyone" but previously tranaslated "all") who believe and includes all who believe. The same is true in John 6:54. So, the very use of this clause both preceding Johnn 6:44 and after John 6:44 contradicts Bro. flowers interpretation.

Not only so, but John 6:64-65 contradicts his interpretation. His whole position demands that drawing is universal in scope including "all men" without exception from Adam to the last human born on earth. John 6:64 explicitly states that Jesus knew that some of his disciples were never true believers and the reaso he gives is that it was not "given" to them by the Father. What was not "given" is what is included in the word "draw" in verse 64. Dr. Flowers demands that what is inclusive in the word "draw" in John 6:44 is given to all men without exception.

Therefore, since coming to Christ in true faith must be "given" to them and it was not given to them by the Father then it follows that all to whom it is given do come to Christ by faith.

Finally, every other use of the verbs Helko and Helkuo in the New Testament are found in the active voice as is the texts in question. This means that the object of the verb ("him") has no part in the action of the verbs but is wholly passive with regard to that action. Second, every other use of these verbs demonstrates drawing effectually and inseparably includes coming as what is being drawn in all other cases is also coming at one and the same time.

First, lets start with a gender accurate version, No man can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

Next, the "natural reading" of the text is that Jesus will raise up those who come to Him.

Next "coming to Me" does not refer to "coming to faith in Christ, it refers to a change in location, from being not in Christ to being transferred into Christ. Otherwise Jesus would not need to say He will not cast them out, verse 37. When God "gives" a person to Christ, He spiritually transfers them into Christ.

 

[Dave G]

Next, the "natural reading" of the text is that Jesus will raise up those who come to Him.

What is "natural" to some, is un-natural to others:

" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned." ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 )

 

[Van]

I think Dr. Flowers reading is the natural reading, it is the same one that I found in the verse.
In your verse, you probably say the natural reading is "not any of the things of the Spirit" whereas in light of verse 3:1, I say the natural reading is "not the solid food things of the Spirit." Men of flesh can understand the "milk" (fundamentals of the gospel).

 

[Dave G]

I think Dr. Flowers reading is the natural reading, it is the same one that I found in the verse.
In your verse, you probably say the natural reading is "not any of the things of the Spirit" whereas in light of verse 3:1, I say the natural reading is "not the solid food things of the Spirit." Men of flesh can understand the "milk" (fundamentals of the gospel).

Regrettably, I think that Dr. Flowers' reading of it is the "natural" reading as well...
The natural man's reading of it, not the spiritual man's.

The "natural man" cannot even understand the Gospel, because it is a thing of the Spirit of God.
Do you ever wonder why so many men reject the Gospel?
Because they are "natural men".

If you understand and believe it, then praise God for both His gift of eternal life, and His giving you the understanding of it.

 

[Iconoclast]

The saving work of Christ preceded the cross. We have been talking about that faith or coming to Christ is the work of God giving and drawing them. Abraham is proof positive that this work of God producing faith preceded the cross. Hebrews 11 proves God's work of producing faith being the "author and finisher" (12:2) preceded the cross. The cross merely provided the legal basis, but God applied it according to promise that the legal basis would be provided.

B, I agree.I am asking this person to explain his misuse of jn12:32

 

[Iconoclast]

First, lets start with a gender accurate version, No man can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

Next, the "natural reading" of the text is that Jesus will raise up those who come to Him.

Next "coming to Me" does not refer to "coming to faith in Christ, it refers to a change in location, from being not in Christ to being transferred into Christ. Otherwise Jesus would not need to say He will not cast them out, verse 37. When God "gives" a person to Christ, He spiritually transfers them into Christ.

Biblicist answered this in detail here; DID YOU EVEN READ [POST 25?]
The Father’s act of giving precedes the act of coming by all the Father gives. In verse 37 “giveth” is present tense while “shall come” is future tense proving the action of giving precedes the action of coming. However, by how much time does God’s action of giving occur prior to the action of Coming. That is answered in verses 38-39. In verses 38-39 the action of giving precedes Christ’s act of incarnation as Christ says that his coming down in heaven (v. 38) was in response to the Father already having “given” (v. 39) such to the Son. Christ uses the perfect tense translated “have given” in verse 39 demonstrating the act of giving by the Father stood as a completed action that stood completed at the time Christ descended from heaven. This places the Father’s act of giving not only prior to the action of “all” these coming to Christ in faith, but prior to the incarnation. How long before the incarnation? The Father cannot give a definite “all” unless he first choose them out from all others so giving is consequential to choosing and choosing refers to the elect “from before the foundation of the world” (Eph.1:4). Indeed, the “elect” are the only people designated prior to the incarnation where “ALL” will be saved. If you think not, then provide chapter and verse for any all designated people prior to the incarnation that “ALL” will be saved???

 

[The Biblicist]

Regrettably, I think that Dr. Flowers' reading of it is the "natural" reading as well...
The natural man's reading of it, not the spiritual man's.

The "natural man" cannot even understand the Gospel, because it is a thing of the Spirit of God.
Do you ever wonder why so many men reject the Gospel?
Because they are "natural men".
e
If you understand and believe it, then praise God for both His gift of eternal life, and His giving you the understanding of it.

If a born again man's will is impotent to overcoming indwelling sin (Rom. 7:18) but God must work in the regenerate person "both to will and to do of His good pleasure" than how in the world can unregenerate "will" or "do" what a regenerate man cannot do?????

Accountability to do something versus ability are two different things. If man is the cause of his inability that does not mean he is not still legally accountable.

So many of the tensions in scripture that command sinners to do what they have no ability to do are not contradictions nor make God unjust as sinners are accountable for their own inability and equally accountable to do what they are not able to do.

 

[Van]

Biblicist answered this in detail here; DID YOU EVEN READ [POST 25?]

Well one of us didn't read it. He said "comes by faith" I demonstrated that view is precluded.
Yes when God transfers a person into Christ, the act of giving precedes the act of coming to Christ.

 

[Van]

What is "natural" to some, is un-natural to others:

" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned." ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 )

Natural reading is not the reading of an unregenerate person. It has to do with the most likely meaning based on word meaning and grammar. The opposite is to offer an unnatural reading to claim it means what it does not say.

 

[utilyan]

When Jesus went to the cross, millions were already dead, How were all the dead drawn?
When Jesus was on the cross, people around the world were dying that very week, how were they drawn having never heard of Jesus?

I agree. Even if we toss out Jesus descending into hell/hades. I'm just making the point when Jesus dies on the cross he draws ALL MEN. Doesn't change anything at all.

Because the implications and charges being made is that only the Father can draw you. And they hide this verse because DRAWING ALL MEN doesn't sit will some folks.

If your son eats ALL the cookies whats left for you to eat?

 

[Danthemailman]

Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief/faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in and enables us (John 6:44,65) we would NEVER come to believe in Christ unto salvation all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to believing in Christ unto salvation/placing faith in Christ for salvation comes from God.

 

[Van]

Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief/faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in and enables us (John 6:44,65) we would NEVER come to believe in Christ unto salvation all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to believing in Christ unto salvation/placing faith in Christ for salvation comes from God.

Hi Dan,

I agree, the Bible says whoever believes will not perish, thus if we die in unbelief, we perish.

I do not think the rest of your view reflects what the Bible says. First, of course we would not believe in Christ, if Christ had not been born, lived, taught, died, and arose from the tomb. The Holy Spirit inspired the authors that told us about in, both in the Old Testament, and in the New. Next, the Bible says all who behold Jesus, high and lifted up (suffering and dying on the cross for us) will be drawn (attracted to Him).
Then the bible says God alone either credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, or He doesn't. After He credits our faith as righteousness, He gives us to Christ by transferring us spiritually into Christ. The transfer is our "coming to Me" in John 6:44.

In John 6:65, "granted" means "allowed." Judas was not chosen to believe, but to be the betrayer, thus it was not allowed that he would actually believe in Jesus.