Reconciling Paul, Hebrews and James

[AustinC]

There are two 'hearts' that Paul is writing about in Ro 2.

The 'hard and impenitent' heart...:

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:


...and the circumcised heart with the law written upon it:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


God renders to each of these hearts according to (not because of) their works.

7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:

8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;

Paul is writing about one heart. Both the Gentile, not under the law, and the Jew, under the law, are dead in their sins. Neither can be justified because sin has killed them and the law cannot save them.

The heart of man is desperately wicked. It never seeks after God, indeed it cannot.

redneck, you are stumbling over your inability to understand Paul's legal argument, which he builds from chapter 1-8. I urge you to fully study this entire argument rather than cherry pick and thus miss the entire argument.

 

[George Antonios]

Romans 2:4-5. 'Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.'

Ephesians 2:8-9. 'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast.'

James 2:24. 'You se then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only.......For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.'

Hebrews 11:17. 'By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.'

James 2:21. 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar. Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works his faith was made perfect?'

Hebrews 11:31. 'By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she received the spies with peace.'

James 2:25. 'Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?'

On another thread @kyredneck and I crossed swords over the doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone. The question is, how do we reconcile the verses above? I intend to set out my understanding shortly, but I thought I'd open it up to others to post first.

I haven't posted anything from the Gospels. Readers may think of verses like Mark 5:38; Luke 7:9; John 3:16; 6:28-29; 7:37-38; 11:40 etc.

I have no perfect answer, but the answer definitely has to do with different dispensations: church age VS tribulation.

 

[kyredneck]

The word “justify” has a different meaning according to the context.

Paul uses “justify”, in context, as a forensic justification in a court of law; being declared not guilty.

James uses “justify”, in context, as validation of faith. Your works validate your faith.

Knowing you keep your posts honest and straightforward (I tend to always read your posts) I'm curious how you 'justify' the above conclusions, seeing that Paul and James are using the same Greek word for 'justify'.

 

[kyredneck]

Word: dikaiow
Pronounce: dik-ah-yo'-o
Strongs Number: G1344
Orig: from 1342; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:--free, justify(-ier), be righteous. G1342
Use: TDNT-2:211,168 Verb
Heb Strong: H974 H2135 H6663 H7378 H8199
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8

 

[canadyjd]

Knowing you keep your posts honest and straightforward (I tend to always read your posts) I'm curious how you 'justify' the above conclusions, seeing that Paul and James are using the same Greek word for 'justify'.

Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate your posts as well.

All words, no matter the language, have meaning in the context they are used. Any dictionary will give you a list of possible meanings.

So the word “justify” in Paul’s writings is focused on a forensic, or legal, justification in a law court. God “justified” us, declares us not guilty in a legal sense, based on our faith in Christ and not by any works we do,

The way James uses the word “justify”, in context, gives the sense of validation. The works we validate our faith. So faith (which alone brings salvation) is validated by a transformed life that includes works.

I think James may have seen future Baptists. We are convinced good works do not save us and many seem determined to prove it.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Word: dikaiow
Pronounce: dik-ah-yo'-o
Strongs Number: G1344
Orig: from 1342; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:--free, justify(-ier), be righteous. G1342
Use: TDNT-2:211,168 Verb
Heb Strong: H974 H2135 H6663 H7378 H8199
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8

Thank you. In these various meanings you find what I said.

The first says “to render…..innocent”. That’s the context of Paul’s use.

The second says, “to show or exhibit…one to be righteous”. That’s the context of Jame’s use.

That is how I reconcile the passages.

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

23 who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1 Pet 2

God “justified” us, declares us not guilty in a legal sense, based on our faith in Christ and not by any works we do,

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:

If God is going to judge the hard and impenitent hearts by their works, then He is bound to be righteous in His judgement and also judge the circumcised hearts that have the law written therein by their works. Doesn't matter whether they're Jew or non-Jew.

7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ. Ro 2

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[canadyjd]

……

If God is going to judge the hard and impenitent hearts by their works, then He is bound to be righteous in His judgement and also judge the circumcised hearts that have the law written therein by their works. Doesn't matter whether they're Jew or non-Jew……

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

If true, we all go to hell…..

…..If God does not declare us innocent (justify us) based on faith in Christ, clothing us in His righteousness, but judges us on our works…. then salvation by grace through faith is a lie.

and none are righteous, all fall short, all stand condemned…

The works shall be judged and all shall fall short, but those who put their faith in Christ shall be declared innocent, based on His work on the cross and not anything we did.

That’s Paul’s message, in context.

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

If true, we all go to hell…..

...you just don't get the gist of 'the work of the law written in their heart', or, 'circumcision is that of the heart', do you? These are REDEEMED, BORN FROM ABOVE saints of the Most High.

…..If God does not declare us innocent (justify us) based on faith in Christ, clothing us in His righteousness, but judges us on our works…. then salvation by grace through faith is a lie.

You are waaay overreacting here. They're not our works per se, they're fruits of the spirit, AS IS OUR FAITH.

12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. Phil 2

14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5

 

[canadyjd]

...you just don't get the gist of 'the work of the law written in their heart', or, 'circumcision is that of the heart', do you? These are REDEEMED, BORN FROM ABOVE saints of the Most High.



You are waaay overreacting here. They're not our works per se, they're fruits of the spirit, AS IS OUR FAITH.

12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. Phil 2

14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5

So, if I’m understanding you correctly, you are saying the “works” that believers are judged by are the works they do as result of being saved by grace through faith?

These works do not save, but are the result of salvation. Is that right?

If so, I agree with you, as long as we agree the works do not contribute to our salvation and do not make us righteous before God.

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

So, if I’m understanding you correctly, you are saying the “works” that believers are judged by are the works they do as result of being saved by grace through faith?

These works do not save, but are the result of salvation. Is that right?

If so, I agree with you, as long as we agree the works do not contribute to our salvation and do not make us righteous before God.

peace to you

Where we differ is I see our works AND our faith as the result of our heavenly birth, being born of the Spirit. You seem to insist that works are a result of our faith. There's several examples given in the scriptures of works being apparent BEFORE coming to faith, That's because regeneration is BEFORE faith. The natural man cannot have faith because faith is a fruit of the Spirit and he does not have the Spirit.

 

[AustinC]

23 who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1 Pet 2



5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:

If God is going to judge the hard and impenitent hearts by their works, then He is bound to be righteous in His judgement and also judge the circumcised hearts that have the law written therein by their works. Doesn't matter whether they're Jew or non-Jew.

7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ. Ro 2

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Kyle, you are correct that all humans will have their works judged and all humans will have fallen short. "The wages of sin is death..."
But what is the second half of the verse?
..."but, the free gift of God is eternal life."

What is that free gift?

Faith is the free gift. Faith, which alone justifies us in trusting that Jesus imputed righteousness is applied to us who believe.

 

[canadyjd]

Where we differ is I see our works AND our faith as the result of our heavenly birth, being born of the Spirit. You seem to insist that works are a result of our faith. There's several examples given in the scriptures of works being apparent BEFORE coming to faith, That's because regeneration is BEFORE faith. The natural man cannot have faith because faith is a fruit of the Spirit and he does not have the Spirit.

If works contribute to salvation in any way, then that salvation is no longer by grace, it has been “merited”, at least partially, by works which negates grace totally.

But we can disagree.

Thanks for the civil discussion.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

In Romans 9:30-33 we read:

What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Here we see Paul confirming that we are justified by faith alone. Our works reveal our failure to keep the law. Thinking we can be justified by works is the very thought that is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to God.

 

[kyredneck]

f works contribute to salvation in any way, then that salvation is no longer by grace, it has been “merited”,

Don't you know about 'irresistible grace'? 'Unconditional Election'? I thought you were a Calvinist. Do I need to explain these to you? Do you think someone is able to 'write God's law in their heart' on their own? Do you think someone is able to 'circumcise their heart' on their own? These are metaphors for the work of the Spirit, NOT the letter of the law. Indeed it is by God's grace that we are justified and able to stand in the judgment.

 

[kyredneck]

Thanks for the civil discussion.

Ok. Thanks.

 

[Salty]

In Romans 9:30-33 we read:


Here we see Paul confirming that we are justified by faith alone. Our works reveal our failure to keep the law. Thinking we can be justified by works is the very thought that is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to God.

I would say that it is very important that each person joins a local Baptist church - and when I say local - there is no reason why most people need to travel more than 15 or 20 minutes to attend church. Why some people driver over an hour to church is beyond me.

 

[canadyjd]

Don't you know about 'irresistible grace'? 'Unconditional Election'? I thought you were a Calvinist. Do I need to explain these to you? Do you think someone is able to 'write God's law in their heart' on their own? Do you think someone is able to 'circumcise their heart' on their own? These are metaphors for the work of the Spirit, NOT the letter of the law. Indeed it is by God's grace that we are justified and able to stand in the judgment.

Neither irresistible grace or unconditional election have anything to do with works meriting salvation.

The word “grace” means unmerited favor.

You spoke of regeneration occuring prior to faith and suggested it was during this “time” of being regenerated that works merit the salvation that follows. Is that what you believe?

I believe that is a misunderstanding of the purpose of regeneration. God Holy Spirit regenerates us so that we may understand and believe the truth of Jesus Christ and Him crucified and respond with faith.

Once we have accepted Christ by faith, we are in-dwelt by Holy Spirit Who enables us to do the works God has prepared for us.

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

Neither irresistible grace or unconditional election have anything to do with works meriting salvation.

If you're going to be like some others and resort to false accusations this dialog will soon end. Maybe you're unable to come to grips with the fact that we are all, sheep and goats alike, going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to receive for the deeds done in the body:

10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor 5

Maybe the unscriptural teaching of justification by faith 'alone' has left you ill prepared, skewed you, by not considering the works part of our justification, which God through His grace has also given us the hearts to do.

Neither irresistible grace or unconditional election have anything to do with

God 'shined in our hearts'. God 'writes His law in our hearts'. God 'circumcises our hearts'. He unconditionally chose us for this and there's NO WAY we could resist it or prevent it from happening.

 

[37818]

. . . the fact that we are all, sheep and goats alike, . . .

Ignoring that the sheep and goats are God's end result at the Judgement. The sheep are God's without any merit on the sheep's part. The goats are trusting in their own works.