Records for giving....

[Salty]

Found this on FB:

Should pastors know the giving amount of their parishioners? I don't and never have. I had a pastor friend who checked the churches giving records weekly. He said it amazed him how much influence non-givers had in his church. He used the giving records as a tool for leadership recruitment. What say ye?

 

[Reynolds]

Found this on FB:

Should pastors know the giving amount of their parishioners? I don't and never have. I had a pastor friend who checked the churches giving records weekly. He said it amazed him how much influence non-givers had in his church. He used the giving records as a tool for leadership recruitment. What say ye?

I do not think pastor should know. Sounds like the pastor was selling influence.
I had a pastor once that said "you must tithe to be on the Deacon board." When the next batch of deacons were elected, I asked the pastor if he was going to get a copy of their tax returns. He asked why. I said that is the only way you going to know if they tithe or not. He got mad. Of course, he got mad at me regularly. I thought he would have a stroke the night I got elected Deacon chair. I didn't even want it. I was absent the meeting before and got nominated but not told I was nominated.

 

[Reformed1689]

The only people that need to know are those that handle the money. No reason for anyone else to know but God (and uncle sam if you decide to list it on taxes)

 

[Dr. Bob]

As a veteran pastor I often WISHED I knew the giving of each family. Why? I am to minister to them and yet blinded by my own rule NOT to know an area that might be a major sin in that member's life. Selfishness or unconcern could be hidden and infect the whole body and I would not know where this cancer came from.

I asked our financial elder when he did the IRS giving report privately to each family, to simply list the number of families in each giving demographic to I could see if there was an obvious person with the spirit of Achan. Also see if more teaching on the gift of giving would be helpful.

So, I would get a report based on family size (married w/children at home; married w/o children at home, single 12-25 years, single 25-65, single 65+) then in categories of amounts annually given.

Tough row to hoe - how to pastor without knowing hidden sinful attitudes/actions. Give me a drunk any day where the sin is evident.

 

[Reformed1689]

As a veteran pastor I often WISHED I knew the giving of each family. Why? I am to minister to them and yet blinded by my own rule NOT to know an area that might be a major sin in that member's life. Selfishness or unconcern could be hidden and infect the whole body and I would not know where this cancer came from.

I asked our financial elder when he did the IRS giving report privately to each family, to simply list the number of families in each giving demographic to I could see if there was an obvious person with the spirit of Achan. Also see if more teaching on the gift of giving would be helpful.

So, I would get a report based on family size (married w/children at home; married w/o children at home, single 12-25 years, single 25-65, single 65+) then in categories of amounts annually given.

Tough row to hoe - how to pastor without knowing hidden sinful attitudes/actions. Give me a drunk any day where the sin is evident.

I understand that position, but does Scripture say it has to be giving to the LOCAL church or just TO THE LORD?

 

[agedman]

As a veteran pastor I often WISHED I knew the giving of each family. Why? I am to minister to them and yet blinded by my own rule NOT to know an area that might be a major sin in that member's life. Selfishness or unconcern could be hidden and infect the whole body and I would not know where this cancer came from.

I asked our financial elder when he did the IRS giving report privately to each family, to simply list the number of families in each giving demographic to I could see if there was an obvious person with the spirit of Achan. Also see if more teaching on the gift of giving would be helpful.

So, I would get a report based on family size (married w/children at home; married w/o children at home, single 12-25 years, single 25-65, single 65+) then in categories of amounts annually given.

Tough row to hoe - how to pastor without knowing hidden sinful attitudes/actions. Give me a drunk any day where the sin is evident.

Dr. This is GOOD!

I like the idea of using the demographic.

 

[agedman]

I understand that position, but does Scripture say it has to be giving to the LOCAL church or just TO THE LORD?

What!!!!

You don't believe in store house tithing?????

 

[Alcott]

What!!!!

You don't believe in store house tithing?????

No, we don't have a vault. Or did you mean true tithing of your crops and livestock? We don't have stockyards, either.

 

[agedman]

No, we don't have a vault. Or did you mean true tithing of your crops and livestock? We don't have stockyards, either.

Well we still have places in Texas that are open range, and Yankees are noted for stealing the fruit off the south Texas trees. Besides, we do have the world famous stock yards in Fort Worth.

Do those things count?

Did the temple have a vault?

 

[Salty]

What!!!!

You don't believe in store house tithing?????

NOPE - Grace giving!

In the New Test - "Tithe" is mentioned twice and "tithes" is mentioned 5 times !
The reference is either Pharisees boasting of themselves or mentioned as part of the Law.
Since we are no longer under the Law - then I practice Grace giving. Now, I would say that 10% is a good benchmark - but not a command.

 

[agedman]

NOPE - Grace giving!

In the New Test - "Tithe" is mentioned twice and "tithes" is mentioned 5 times !
The reference is either Pharisees boasting of themselves or mentioned as part of the Law.
Since we are no longer under the Law - then I practice Grace giving. Now, I would say that 10% is a good benchmark - but not a command.

I consider myself a gentle man who was once grace full. Does that count now that I stumble about?

I try not to be too much of a curmudgeon and give graciously the right of way when I drive.

Years ago I had a friend who was a drunkard who was gloriously redeemed. He desired to do something to show the Lord how much he loved Him. The only thing that came to the pastor's mind was to give. The man in child like innocence said, "How much?"
The pastor caught completely unprepared said, "Well, you can start by giving a tenth."
"That's great!" the man exuberantly replied. "I got two fifths under the seat of the truck, will that do?"

The man would go to his old drinking buddies and drag them into the church to hear the preaching. Some were also redeemed. The preacher - Jack Hyles. Where - Miller Road Baptist Church. When - 1950's.



Actually, in all seriousness, you are correct.

As God has given and the believer is to return a portion, not by law or obligation but out of love for the church and the work of the ministry. Should one give abundantly, then they may expect abundance, for that is a promise of the Redeemer.

But if one gives from a heart of expectation and selfish motivation, they should expect nothing in return.

I always wondered what became of the woman who gave all she had. Would she be as the lady that took care of the prophet who demanded the last of her flour and oil?

 

[Deacon]

Our pastor and elders are not privy to who gives and how much.
That said, it is important to the health of a church for the elders to know such information.

Our finance team consists of two mature Christians with financial savvy.

Annually they gather demographic data based upon aspects of the congregation:

• things like amount giving per age group
• amount giving per family size
• how much is given by how many givers (is a lot given by only a few givers?),
• other stuff too.

Rob

 

[Reynolds]

As a veteran pastor I often WISHED I knew the giving of each family. Why? I am to minister to them and yet blinded by my own rule NOT to know an area that might be a major sin in that member's life. Selfishness or unconcern could be hidden and infect the whole body and I would not know where this cancer came from.

I asked our financial elder when he did the IRS giving report privately to each family, to simply list the number of families in each giving demographic to I could see if there was an obvious person with the spirit of Achan. Also see if more teaching on the gift of giving would be helpful.

So, I would get a report based on family size (married w/children at home; married w/o children at home, single 12-25 years, single 25-65, single 65+) then in categories of amounts annually given.

Tough row to hoe - how to pastor without knowing hidden sinful attitudes/actions. Give me a drunk any day where the sin is evident.

You still would not know the accurate picture of some. The bulk of my giving does not go to my church. I pay my families way, but definitely not 10%. The bulk of my giving goes to a Christian medical missionary in Nicaragua. I have never, nor probably will I ever, tell anyone at church about it. That missionary wins more people to Christ every year than our church has won in the last 20 years combined.

 

[Reynolds]

Our pastor and elders are not privy to who gives and how much.
That said, it is important to the health of a church for the elders to know such information.

Our finance team consists of two mature Christians with financial savvy.

Annually they gather demographic data based upon aspects of the congregation:

• things like amount giving per age group
• amount giving per family size
• how much is given by how many givers (is a lot given by only a few givers?),
• other stuff too.

Rob

I have handled the finances for a couple of churches. A couple things were true if both. 10% of the families give 90% of the money. Those 10% also run the church and make all the decisions.