Red Heifer

[Two Wings]

Ezekiel is recounting a vision he had. In 43:7, God tells him that was the place of His throne, where He places His feet, and where He will dwell with Israel forever.

Is God dwelling with Israel forever on the earth, or in heaven?

In heaven. The vision is of the Temple in heaven.

peace to you

OK. But isn’t the New Jerusalem that? The post 1000 year reign with Christ on earth, then He makes all things new?

Sure seems like there is more indicating a 3rd Temple than not ...

What is this wall separating the holy from the profane thing ... in heaven? How can there be a profane thing in heaven?

this is what tells me it’s a literal 3rd construction of a building in our time before Jesus’ Return. A 500 reed wall (IDK that dimension in feet, but this is what Ezekiel wrote) ... separates the holy from the profane ...

The Temple with the holy place and the holy of holies ... just north of the dome of the rock. The profane thing. The abomination Daniel prophesied in chapter 12. 1290 (years) from the cessation of the regular sacrifice, you will see the abomination standing isn’t he holy place. There’s an estimate (afaik) of 599 being the year the altar was extinguished in the 2nd siege on Jerusalem by the Babylonians ... the math is pretty clear. Precisely the year the dome of the rock was finished. 691 AD.

I can agree prophesy has multiple focuses/references. I’m not convinced there isn’t going to be a 3rd Temple before Jesus Returns.

 

[tyndale1946]

OK. But isn’t the New Jerusalem that? The post 1000 year reign with Christ on earth, then He makes all things new?

Sure seems like there is more indicating a 3rd Temple than not ...

What is this wall separating the holy from the profane thing ... in heaven? How can there be a profane thing in heaven?

this is what tells me it’s a literal 3rd construction of a building in our time before Jesus’ Return. A 500 reed wall (IDK that dimension in feet, but this is what Ezekiel wrote) ... separates the holy from the profane ...

The Temple with the holy place and the holy of holies ... just north of the dome of the rock. The profane thing. The abomination Daniel prophesied in chapter 12. 1290 (years) from the cessation of the regular sacrifice, you will see the abomination standing isn’t he holy place. There’s an estimate (afaik) of 599 being the year the altar was extinguished in the 2nd siege on Jerusalem by the Babylonians ... the math is pretty clear. Precisely the year the dome of the rock was finished. 691 AD.

I can agree prophesy has multiple focuses/references. I’m not convinced there isn’t going to be a 3rd Temple before Jesus Returns.

I don't mean to be sacrilegious but when saw the OP Red Heifer the only thing that came to mind was Omaha Steaks... Oops!... Brother Glen

 

[canadyjd]

OK. But isn’t the New Jerusalem that? The post 1000 year reign with Christ on earth, then He makes all things new?

Sure seems like there is more indicating a 3rd Temple than not ...

What is this wall separating the holy from the profane thing ... in heaven? How can there be a profane thing in heaven?

this is what tells me it’s a literal 3rd construction of a building in our time before Jesus’ Return. A 500 reed wall (IDK that dimension in feet, but this is what Ezekiel wrote) ... separates the holy from the profane ...

The Temple with the holy place and the holy of holies ... just north of the dome of the rock. The profane thing. The abomination Daniel prophesied in chapter 12. 1290 (years) from the cessation of the regular sacrifice, you will see the abomination standing isn’t he holy place. There’s an estimate (afaik) of 599 being the year the altar was extinguished in the 2nd siege on Jerusalem by the Babylonians ... the math is pretty clear. Precisely the year the dome of the rock was finished. 691 AD.

I can agree prophesy has multiple focuses/references. I’m not convinced there isn’t going to be a 3rd Temple before Jesus Returns.

One of the reasons I don’t like posting on this topic is because folks just dismiss out of hand what is said.

You asked for a passage of scripture that disproves a literal interpretation. I pointed to Ez 43:7, where (in Ezekiel’s vision) God tells him that place he was measuring contains His throne, is where His feet are (suggesting permanence) and is where He will dwell with Israel “forever”.

That is definitive proof that the Temple Ezekiel was measuring was not on earth because God does not dwell on earth forever.

Instead of addressing that passage, which you asked for, you just moved into dispensationalism theology concerning a 1000 year reign on earth.

If you look into the history of dispensation theology, you will find it didn’t exist until the mid-1800’s. In the history of the church, no one believed a literal 1000 year reign on earth (that is a mis-reading of revelation which states the martyrs will reign with Christ for 1000 years as a reward for their perseverance)

I urge you to read older commentaries, works of saints who dedicated their lives to studying these issues. It may be helpful.

I really don’t think we are making any progress here, so instead of just making the same arguments over and over, I’ll bow out.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Two Wings]

One of the reasons I don’t like posting on this topic is because folks just dismiss out of hand what is said.

You asked for a passage of scripture that disproves a literal interpretation. I pointed to Ez 43:7, where (in Ezekiel’s vision) God tells him that place he was measuring contains His throne, is where His feet are (suggesting permanence) and is where He will dwell with Israel “forever”.

That is definitive proof that the Temple Ezekiel was measuring was not on earth because God does not dwell on earth forever.

Instead of addressing that passage, which you asked for, you just moved into dispensationalism theology concerning a 1000 year reign on earth.

If you look into the history of dispensation theology, you will find it didn’t exist until the mid-1800’s. In the history of the church, no one believed a literal 1000 year reign on earth (that is a mis-reading of revelation which states the martyrs will reign with Christ for 1000 years as a reward for their perseverance)

I urge you to read older commentaries, works of saints who dedicated their lives to studying these issues. It may be helpful.

I really don’t think we are making any progress here, so instead of just making the same arguments over and over, I’ll bow out.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

Dont be upset. I didnt dismiss out of hand. Good grief.

i simply asked how a profane thing is in heaven.

but if you wanna punch out I cant stop ya.

 

[canadyjd]

Dont be upset. I didnt dismiss out of hand. Good grief.

i simply asked how a profane thing is in heaven.

but if you wanna punch out I cant stop ya.

I’m not upset. The “profane” thing is probably a reference to something “common” not Holy (set apart) I’m sure you will find a similar reference in the instructions Solomon received when building the first Temple. Some things were considered “holy” meaning set apart for a specific purpose, and some were “common”, or “profane”, meaning not for a specific purpose.

The Temple in earth was always meant to symbolically represent the “Temple” in heaven.

Ive answered your question. Please address my question.

You stated the belief Ezekiel is measuring the 3rd Temple on earth (chap 40-43 or so) and ask for scripture that would disprove that belief.

I pointed to 43:7 (in the context of his vision measuring the Temple) where God tells him the place he is measuring is where His throne is (ruling from), where His feet are (permanent home) and where He will be with Israel “forever”. (Eternity)

My question is, how can that Temple that Ezekiel was measuring be on earth given God’s statement?

peace to you

 

[Two Wings]

My question is, how can that Temple that Ezekiel was measuring be on earth given God’s statement?

OK ... I'm glad you're not upset. Thanks.

the short answer is ... I don't know.

HOWEVER ... given God's design was perfect and He walked with His creation Adam & Eve before the Fall on planet earth ... I am not dismissing that Heaven is where God is; the presence of Jesus. Given Jesus said He was going to make all things new ... and we read about this vision given to John about the New Jerusalem. I offer that this isn't just the new city in Israel, it's a renewed planet.

The Garden of Eden, if you will, is re-created. Is it possible we aren't playing harps on clouds? Paul tells us about the incorruptible (glorified) bodies we will be given before the New Jerusalem.


1 Kings 6 tells us about the detail of the instruction to Solomon on the Temple's construction. What specifically is declared profane ... or ... as you've offered ... "common?"

You may be right ... but I find this Ez 42 reference to the separation between the holy and profane to be more substantial than simply "common wood" (for example.) I understand this because of what I believe to be fulfilled prophesy in the dome of the rock ... to the year. A brief overview of that structure validates it is the Dan 12 abomination in the holy place.


THEREFORE ... it seems reasonable to then understand the separation of the holy (Temple) from the profane ( dome of the rock)

Your highlight of John's measuring following his being caught into the presence of God (Heaven) suggests that place cannot be on earth/literal 3rd Temple is interesting and I don't dismiss it, but I'm wondering if the vision couldn't have been of a physical structure

There seems to be a lot of preparation and support in Israel to build a 3rd Temple on Temple Mount for it to never happen.

 

[tyndale1946]

OK ... I'm glad you're not upset. Thanks.

the short answer is ... I don't know.

HOWEVER ... given God's design was perfect and He walked with His creation Adam & Eve before the Fall on planet earth ... I am not dismissing that Heaven is where God is; the presence of Jesus. Given Jesus said He was going to make all things new ... and we read about this vision given to John about the New Jerusalem. I offer that this isn't just the new city in Israel, it's a renewed planet.

The Garden of Eden, if you will, is re-created. Is it possible we aren't playing harps on clouds? Paul tells us about the incorruptible (glorified) bodies we will be given before the New Jerusalem.


1 Kings 6 tells us about the detail of the instruction to Solomon on the Temple's construction. What specifically is declared profane ... or ... as you've offered ... "common?"

You may be right ... but I find this Ez 42 reference to the separation between the holy and profane to be more substantial than simply "common wood" (for example.) I understand this because of what I believe to be fulfilled prophesy in the dome of the rock ... to the year. A brief overview of that structure validates it is the Dan 12 abomination in the holy place.


THEREFORE ... it seems reasonable to then understand the separation of the holy (Temple) from the profane ( dome of the rock)

Your highlight of John's measuring following his being caught into the presence of God (Heaven) suggests that place cannot be on earth/literal 3rd Temple is interesting and I don't dismiss it, but I'm wondering if the vision couldn't have been of a physical structure

There seems to be a lot of preparation and support in Israel to build a 3rd Temple on Temple Mount for it to never happen.

What you said brings up a question?... If there is going to be a third temple as some say and believe... Then what are you going to do with Jesus Christ's own words to prove it?

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Like I've been telling brethren since I first joined, put me on the glory train I'm Heaven bound!... Brother Glen

 

[Two Wings]

Then what are you going to do with Jesus Christ's own words to prove it?

I honor them and am thankful for them. His word is Truth. HE is Truth. He is the Word which was with God in the beginning.

Of these you reference, I do not see how they are in opposition to the construction of the 3rd Temple. I do not suggest the 3rd Temple is a place to which God will be limited as if it's a jail or something. I simply offer that the sacrifices resume. Daniel clearly tells us this and even tells us when; in the last 7 years. The sacrifices have to resume to be stopped, yes?

Well, then it seems reasonable to expect, also, a place to make these sacrifices ... initially a tabernacle, methinks, as the Temple is constructed.

And again ... I understand there is NOTHING redemptive about this, but it DOES fulfill prophesy.

Thanks be to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ... I'm on the glory train with you, Brother Glen. MARANATHA!

 

[Two Wings]

John 14:2

Do you take BibleGateway's "verse of the day" too?

 

[canadyjd]

OK ... I'm glad you're not upset. Thanks.

the short answer is ... I don't know.

HOWEVER ... given God's design was perfect and He walked with His creation Adam & Eve before the Fall on planet earth ... I am not dismissing that Heaven is where God is; the presence of Jesus. Given Jesus said He was going to make all things new ... and we read about this vision given to John about the New Jerusalem. I offer that this isn't just the new city in Israel, it's a renewed planet.

The Garden of Eden, if you will, is re-created. Is it possible we aren't playing harps on clouds? Paul tells us about the incorruptible (glorified) bodies we will be given before the New Jerusalem.


1 Kings 6 tells us about the detail of the instruction to Solomon on the Temple's construction. What specifically is declared profane ... or ... as you've offered ... "common?"

You may be right ... but I find this Ez 42 reference to the separation between the holy and profane to be more substantial than simply "common wood" (for example.) I understand this because of what I believe to be fulfilled prophesy in the dome of the rock ... to the year. A brief overview of that structure validates it is the Dan 12 abomination in the holy place.


THEREFORE ... it seems reasonable to then understand the separation of the holy (Temple) from the profane ( dome of the rock)

Your highlight of John's measuring following his being caught into the presence of God (Heaven) suggests that place cannot be on earth/literal 3rd Temple is interesting and I don't dismiss it, but I'm wondering if the vision couldn't have been of a physical structure

There seems to be a lot of preparation and support in Israel to build a 3rd Temple on Temple Mount for it to never happen.

Ok, so you believe heaven will be on a rebuilt earth, with a 3rd temple where God will dwell.

We can disagree

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Two Wings]

Ok, so you believe heaven will be on a rebuilt earth, with a 3rd temple where God will dwell.

We can disagree

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

we can also query together.

what does “the New Jerusalem” coming down mean?

 

[canadyjd]

we can also query together.

what does “the New Jerusalem” coming down mean?

You will have to provide that quote for me.

peace to you

 

[Two Wings]

You will have to provide that quote for me.

peace to you

Rev 21:2, 10

 

[canadyjd]

Rev 21:2, 10

Revelation is full of symbolism. In 21:2, the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven, happens after the old earth and heaven have passed away. So whatever else it is, it can’t be a 3rd Temple on this earth.

I know some see God creating a new physical earth and heaven and that is where we spend eternity. I believe the reference to a new heaven/earth is beyond our understanding at this point, so I’m open to that possibility, though I believe it’s symbolic of a new life in God’s heaven.

peace to you

 

[Two Wings]

Revelation is full of symbolism. In 21:2, the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven, happens after the old earth and heaven have passed away. So whatever else it is, it can’t be a 3rd Temple on this earth.

I know some see God creating a new physical earth and heaven and that is where we spend eternity. I believe the reference to a new heaven/earth is beyond our understanding at this point, so I’m open to that possibility, though I believe it’s symbolic of a new life in God’s heaven.

peace to you

well you may be right.

Or maybe not.

verse 5 in this chapter says Jesus will make all things new after the period (1000 years/millennium/whatever) where He reigns physically on this planet post Armageddon.

Sure seems like He's gonna restore everything to the way it was in the beginning ... but there'll be no accuser. No lying snake in the grass.

This is really a parallel to the issue of the 3rd Temple anyway. Daniel speaks of the sacrifices stopped by the one who confirmed the covenant with many for one week (7 years) ... that means the sacrifices must have started to be stopped and if started, there must be a rightful place to make these sacrifices. I'm pretty sure the sacrifices won't be held over a campfire in a backyard somewhere/anywhere.

 

[percho]

Was there a temple of God before Adam was created?

Was there a footstool of God Before Adam was created?

Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? Isa 66:1

 

[canadyjd]

well you may be right.

Or maybe not.

verse 5 in this chapter says Jesus will make all things new after the period (1000 years/millennium/whatever) where He reigns physically on this planet post Armageddon.

Sure seems like He's gonna restore everything to the way it was in the beginning ... but there'll be no accuser. No lying snake in the grass.

This is really a parallel to the issue of the 3rd Temple anyway. Daniel speaks of the sacrifices stopped by the one who confirmed the covenant with many for one week (7 years) ... that means the sacrifices must have started to be stopped and if started, there must be a rightful place to make these sacrifices. I'm pretty sure the sacrifices won't be held over a campfire in a backyard somewhere/anywhere.

John does not write in “chronological order”. John writes in repeating themes.

Revelation does not say Jesus reigns on a physical earth for 1000 years. The context of the passage is that martyrs killed during the tribulation will reign with Christ for 1000 years as a reward. Jesus reigns in heaven for eternity.

peace to you

 

[Two Wings]

John does not write in “chronological order”. John writes in repeating themes.

Revelation does not say Jesus reigns on a physical earth for 1000 years. The context of the passage is that martyrs killed during the tribulation will reign with Christ for 1000 years as a reward. Jesus reigns in heaven for eternity.

peace to you

Ok … but the term isn’t the point. It is that Jesus will make all things new.

Heaven, to me, isnt some etherial place in the universe. It is being in the full presence of Jesus.

I have no idea how the logistics of that will work but I accept it will work. Perfectly.

As such … the 3rd Temple is coming. The sacrifices resume for some relatively brief amount of time before Antichrist stops the sacrifices.

I prob should be more aware, but I don’t know right now if you are one who holds this new to me view of prophesy called “pretirism?” …. Where all these things are supposedly already done.

what has the last 1900 years been if it was all done then? If you dont ascribed to this doctrine, disregard.

 

[canadyjd]

Ok … but the term isn’t the point. It is that Jesus will make all things new.

Heaven, to me, isnt some etherial place in the universe. It is being in the full presence of Jesus.

I have no idea how the logistics of that will work but I accept it will work. Perfectly.

As such … the 3rd Temple is coming. The sacrifices resume for some relatively brief amount of time before Antichrist stops the sacrifices.

I prob should be more aware, but I don’t know right now if you are one who holds this new to me view of prophesy called “pretirism?” …. Where all these things are supposedly already done.

what has the last 1900 years been if it was all done then? If you dont ascribed to this doctrine, disregard.

Jesus prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple occurred in AD 70.

His prophecy concerning The great tribulation of the church, followed by His return, followed immediately by the gathering of the saints, followed immediately by the resurrection of the dead, followed immediately by the great throne judgment and then eternal life in heaven in peace in His presence have not yet occurred.

Heaven is where God is. It is not earth.

There can be no separate future for Jews and the church as it would require the work of Jesus on the cross that made both groups one new man and have peace with each other and God, would have to be undone. That is impossible.

There is no 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. Scripture, in context, does not support that view.

The Dome of the Rock, a Muslim mosque considered the third most Holy site in Islam, sits on the Temple Mount.

The Jewish Temple will not be rebuilt.

If we both live long enough to endure the great tribulation until Jesus returns, I promise not to say “see I told you so” as we are caught up in the air by the angels and taken into heaven

peace to you

 

[Two Wings]

Step Into The Story The Red Heifer / Ray Bentley / October 20, 2021 - Step Into The Story - Maranatha TV

the message begins at about 6:30 into the video