Redemption

[Yelsew]

So there must be a difference between the so-called "righteousness" as perceived by the conscience and God's righteousness.

Well No Duh! There goes your total depravity theory! And no one has said that the "self righteousness" of man is what God would call good. But it is not depravity let alone total! All that has been argued is that man is not "Totally Depraved" and that Paul was speaking to the Roman church about sexually immoral condition of the Romans who were totally given over to open sexual activity even worshipping a Godess of fertility and of Love.

This pretty much explains why the Jews, for all their zeal, were not saved. And if you have a concsience, a willful zeal for God, and still can't be saved, then that should tell you what awesome power free will has toward salvation! [/sarcasm]

Sarcasm or not, you have concluded wrongly. Free will is not the actor, but like grace is merely the facilitator! "For By Grace" and "For by Free will" are equal statements. Grace is not what saves, but without grace salvation is not possible. "For by free will" does not being salvation either, but without it no man can be saved thru faith!

 

[Frogman]

the word for defile is miaino meaning primarily to stain, to tinge or dye with another color, as in the staining of a glass, hence, to pollute, contaminate, soil, defile, it is used of ceremonial defilement John 18.28; and in the Septuagint in Lev. 22.5, 8; Num. 19.13, 20 and of moral defilement twice in Titus 1.15; Heb. 12.15; and of moral and physical defilement in Jude 8.

The word moluno is to 'besmear' as with mud or filth. It is used in the figurative sense of believers smearing thier conscience in 1 Cor. 8.7 and of believers who have kept their garments from defilement in Rev. 3.4; and of those not soiling themselves by adultery or fornication in Rev. 14.4.

The difference between miaino and moluno is that the latter is not used in ritual or ceremonial sense.

In Titus then, is spoken of the conscience of the unbelieving, it even says so in the text. I shouldn't have to defend it.

The "pure" in vs. 15 of Titus 1 are not the same as the "unbelieving" who "...even their mind and conscience is defiled."

vs. 16 is even stronger: "They profess they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

Why do they "deny" him? Because they, by their own will cannot know him. Why? Because being unbelievers, their consciences are defiled.

The above definitions taken from Vine's.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

"For by Free will"

Where does the Bible say this so that it can be the same as "For By GRACE?"

I see "justified freely by his grace." at Rom. 3.24; but can't find where it says "justified freely by free-will."

Point that out to me so I can note it in my reading. If you don't mind.

Thanks.
Bro. Dallas

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Where does the Bible say this so that it can be the same as "For By GRACE?"

I see "justified freely by his grace." at Rom. 3.24; but can't find where it says "justified freely by free-will."

Point that out to me so I can note it in my reading. If you don't mind.

Thanks.
Bro. Dallas

It's right next to the verse that tells you Adam was with Eve when she was deceived. If I recall correctly, that passage reads: Adam heard what the serpent had to say and figured, "I'll let the chick take a bite first and then see if she croaks. If she does, no problem, I've got more ribs. If she doesn't kick the bucket then I guess the fruit is safe for me to eat, too. Yeah, that's the ticket. You go girl - take a bite!"

 

[Frogman]

"For By Grace" and "For by Free will" are equal statements.

It would have to be in some version I have not read, perhaps in a strange language as well.

The only will in the whole universe that is free is the Will of God. Christ possessed a will which was without spot nor blemish, but submitted His will unto the Father. And He and the Father are one. Any other will is in bondage to the sin nature.


Bro. Dallas

[ February 11, 2003, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Frogman:

Why do they "deny" him? Because they, by their own will cannot know him. Why? Because being unbelievers, their consciences are defiled.

This is where you make your error. You assert that lost man cannot "know" Him or that they "deny" Him because of the "defiled" state of their consciences. But that is not the real reason the lost cannot know God.

The reason a lost man could not know God, before Christ's coming, is because God had not revealed himself to that man. The state of his conscience, defiled or pure, is not the issue, because everyone's conscience is defiled to one degree or another.

The issue is this: Man's conscience is influenced by what has been revealed to him. Without the revelation of God, the only since of "righteousness" revealed is what the world has given, thus "deviling" man's conscience.

It's only when the "new righteousness" of Grace is revealed that mankind can be influenced by the power of it's message. Before the gospel was in existance man's conscience could not have been influenced by the message of the cross and God's redeeming grace. Now, it can.

The message of the cross, the power of the gospel, is now an influencial part of our world, thus influencing man's conscience to respond to God's geniune call to faith and repentance.

Still the point stands. A conscience is defiled or stained, not dead. A man's conscience is defiled by what it sees and hears, so too it can be purified by those same means. Though once again, I don't deny that a working of the Holy Spirit's act of "pricking" the heart is also a necessary compontent of that process. Does this remove man's decision once the "pricking" has occured? No. Man is responsible for his decision.

With Respect,
Bro. Bill