Reformed Baptists

[atpollard]

If you say NO then that means they were saved prior to creation. No need to hear the gospel, no need to trust in Christ.

False.
It merely means that God really IS in control so there is only one POSSIBLE outcome. A sinner is not “saved” before they are saved, they are merely foreknown and predestined to be called and justified and glorified (that whole Romans 8 thing).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Then faith is not required as they are already saved according to your theology.


And here you contradict your prior comment.


But according to your own comments those picked out prior to creation could not be lost so faith has nothing to do with their salvation.

You do seem to be rather confused Martin.

One of us is confused, but I think you'll find it's you. My comments could not be clearer. Perhaps you need to read them again, more slowly.

He did not deal with the issue either.

was there any possibility that those picked out could be lost?

That is the issue that you have ignored.

But you said " Of course 'elect before creation' means that those God chooses can never be lost."

So your NO means they were saved prior to creation. No need to hear the gospel, no need to trust in Christ.

I know what scripture says Martin

I really don't think you do.

but the issue is what the Calvinist theology says.

It seems you and David are just ignoring what your theology leads to.

I will reply very quickly because you are obviously being deliberately dense.
1. There is no possibility of any of the elect being lost.
2. Everyone who believes will be saved, and no one else. John 6:37.

As I wrote earlier, the God who ordained the end also ordained the means. If you can't understand that, the problem is yours not mine.

 

[Silverhair]

False.
It merely means that God really IS in control so there is only one POSSIBLE outcome. A sinner is not “saved” before they are saved, they are merely foreknown and predestined to be called and justified and glorified (that whole Romans 8 thing).

You calvinist claim that you were elect in Christ prior to creation.

Since only those that are saved are in Christ then calvinist are making the claim that they are saved.

The bible disagrees with your false view but it seems you would rather trust the word of man rather than the word of God.

 

[Silverhair]

One of us is confused, but I think you'll find it's you. My comments could not be clearer. Perhaps you need to read them again, more slowly.

I really don't think you do.

I will reply very quickly because you are obviously being deliberately dense.
1. There is no possibility of any of the elect being lost.
2. Everyone who believes will be saved, and no one else. John 6:37.

As I wrote earlier, the God who ordained the end also ordained the means. If you can't understand that, the problem is yours not mine.

So you still claim that those picked out prior to creation cannot be lost in other words they are saved prior to them being born so logically also prior to them believing.

Your own words show the error of your theology.

 

[David Lamb]

Your not dealing with the problem David.

David you say certain people were elect prior to creation so the question you have to answer is, was there any possibility that those picked out could be lost?

That is the issue that you have ignored.

If, as Romans 8 tells us, God foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified sinners, then no, there is no possibility that once saved, they could be lost:

NKJV Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

If you say YES then would that not call into question the sovereignty of God?

No. It exemplifies His sovereignty.

If you say NO then that means they were saved prior to creation. No need to hear the gospel, no need to trust in Christ.

That is not so. As Martin said, God also appointed the means by which sinners should be saved, including hearing the gospel, believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, and repenting of our sins.

I know what scripture says David but the issue is what the Calvinist theology says.

It seems you and Martin are just ignoring what your theology leads to.

I don't believe so. Rather, I think you misunderstand what Martin and I believe, as we have both tried to tell you many times. Rather, you often seem to tell us what we believe, and that bears little resemblance to what we actually believe.

 

[JonC]

If, as Romans 8 tells us, God foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified sinners, then no, there is no possibility that once saved, they could be lost:

NKJV Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


No. It exemplifies His sovereignty.

That is not so. As Martin said, God also appointed the means by which sinners should be saved, including hearing the gospel, believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, and repenting of our sins.

I don't believe so. Rather, I think you misunderstand what Martin and I believe, as we have both tried to tell you many times. Rather, you often seem to tell us what we believe, and that bears little resemblance to what we actually believe.

You are missing a very important point.

The criteria (the "we" in Romans 8) is "in Christ" and "through Christ".

There are no passages that include the lost in "the elect". Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". We are chosen (elect) in Him.

The Calvinistic idea of the elect being chosen to be in Him reduces divine sovereignty to sovereign decree. That is not true sovereignty.

 

[David Lamb]

You are missing a very important point.

The criteria (the "we" in Romans 8) is "in Christ" and "through Christ".

There are no passages that include the lost in "the elect". Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". We are chosen (elect) in Him.

The Calvinistic idea of the elect being chosen to be in Him reduces divine sovereignty to sovereign decree. That is not true sovereignty.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean. Calvinists, too, believe that the "we" in Romans 8 are chosen in and through Christ.

 

[JonC]

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean. Calvinists, too, believe that the "we" in Romans 8 are chosen in and through Christ.

What I mean is that we are elect in Christ, not to be in Christ.

When the Bible speaks of "the Elect" this is Christ and the elect are those who are in Christ. Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

In other words, men are not elected to salvation but once saved they are numbered among the elect. They are "in Christ" and chosen "in Him" from the foundation of the world.

Calvinism is focused on man, not on Christ, and makes an error by bypassing Christ in election.

 

[David Lamb]

What I mean is that we are elect in Christ, not to be in Christ.

When the Bible speaks of "the Elect" this is Christ and the elect are those who are in Christ. Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

In other words, men are not elected to salvation but once saved they are numbered among the elect. They are "in Christ" and chosen "in Him" from the foundation of the world.

Calvinism is focused on man, not on Christ, and makes an error by bypassing Christ in election.

How can anybody be chosen before the foundation of the world if they are not among the elect (which of course means the same as chosen) until they are actually saved? I disagree with what you wrote about Calvinists bypassing Christ in election; they don't.

 

[JonC]

How can anybody be chosen before the foundation of the world if they are not among the elect (which of course means the same as chosen) until they are actually saved? I disagree with what you wrote about Calvinists bypassing Christ in election; they don't.

They are chosen in Christ. He is the Elect. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World. Those who are in Him are elect (chosen) because they are in Him, predestined to be conformed to His image because they are in Him.

The proof is in the Bible. There are no passages that speak of any man being elect except they are in Christ.

I take it you are a Calvinist so you obviously do not see how you bypass Christ in election. But most Christians do see how. They view the Calvinistic position of election to be the Father choosing (electing) men to be saved.

Are you denying that view (are you denying that the Father elects men of His own sovereign will to be saved)? If not, then you are bypassing Christ in election by viewing election as the Father choosing (electing) men.

 

[JonC]

How can anybody be chosen before the foundation of the world if they are not among the elect (which of course means the same as chosen) until they are actually saved? I disagree with what you wrote about Calvinists bypassing Christ in election; they don't.

That said (my previous post) I do not want to make assumptions.

How do you view election (how is a man "elect")?

 

[David Lamb]

They are chosen in Christ. He is the Elect. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World. Those who are in Him are elect (chosen) because they are in Him, predestined to be conformed to His image because they are in Him.

So you seem to be saying that they were in Christ before the foundation of the world. That's when Scripture says their choosing by God took place. As for saying it was only Christ Who was elect, we do have verses such as:

NKJV Col 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

Paul is addressing the Colossian Christians - he's not telling Christ to put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering. Then there is this verse:

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Again, the context shows that by "the elect" Paul does not mean Christ. (Though lest I be misunderstood, I am not saying that Christ Himself was not elect. The Bible tells us He was, but not to be saved - He, as the sinless Son of God, had no need of salvation.)

The proof is in the Bible. There are no passages that speak of any man being elect except they are in Christ.

I take it you are a Calvinist so you obviously do not see how you bypass Christ in election. But most Christians do see how. They view the Calvinistic position of election to be the Father choosing (electing) men to be saved.

Yes, to be saved by believing in Christ, and thus being "in Christ." The choosing/election took place before the foundation of the world. The being saved takes place when by God's grace a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no bypassing of Christ.

Are you denying that view (are you denying that the Father elects men of His own sovereign will to be saved)? If not, then you are bypassing Christ in election by viewing election as the Father choosing (electing) men.

No, as I have already said, above.

 

[JonC]

So you seem to be saying that they were in Christ before the foundation of the world. That's when Scripture says their choosing by God took place. As for saying it was only Christ Who was elect, we do have verses such as:

NKJV Col 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

Paul is addressing the Colossian Christians - he's not telling Christ to put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering. Then there is this verse:

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Again, the context shows that by "the elect" Paul does not mean Christ. (Though lest I be misunderstood, I am not saying that Christ Himself was not elect. The Bible tells us He was, but not to be saved - He, as the sinless Son of God, had no need of salvation.)




Yes, to be saved by believing in Christ, and thus being "in Christ." The choosing/election took place before the foundation of the world. The being saved takes place when by God's grace a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no bypassing of Christ.

No, as I have already said, above.

No. I am saying Christ is the Elect. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Men are not born physically as the elect. Men become elect. Their election is in Christ. They will be conformed to His image.

Baby Steve is born and his parents rejoice. Steve is lost. Steve is not numbered among the elect. Steve becomes saved, is reborn (born of the Spirit). Steve is now numbered among the elect. Steve is chosen from the foundation of the world because Steve is reborn. It is Christ in Steve, not reprobate Steve. Christ is the elect.


Paul used "elect" correctly. He was speaking to Christians (those who have been reborn, those who are in Christ and Christ in them).

To prove your point you have to provide a verse where lost men are called "elect", predestined to be saved.

You seem to be bypassing Christ in election. How do you view election (how is a man "elect")?

 

[JonC]

@David Lamb

I understand you do not believe Calvinistic election bypasses Christ and I do not want to make assumptions.

You are numbered among the elect. How were you elected? What role does Christ play in your election?

 

[David Lamb]

No. I am saying Christ is the Elect. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Men are not born physically as the elect. Men become elect. Their election is in Christ. They will be conformed to His image.

Baby Steve is born and his parents rejoice. Steve is lost. Steve is not numbered among the elect. Steve becomes saved, is reborn (born of the Spirit). Steve is now numbered among the elect. Steve is chosen from the foundation of the world because Steve is reborn. It is Christ in Steve, not reprobate Steve. Christ is the elect.


Paul used "elect" correctly. He was speaking to Christians (those who have been reborn, those who are in Christ and Christ in them).

To prove your point you have to provide a verse where lost men are called "elect", predestined to be saved.

You seem to be bypassing Christ in election. How do you view election (how is a man "elect")?

We seem to be misunderstanding one another or not understanding. I will leave the matter there because I am becoming repetitive which is unedifying for other BB members. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[JonC]

We seem to be misunderstanding one another or not understanding. I will leave the matter there because I am becoming repetitive which is unedifying for other BB members. Thanks for the discussion.

I agree. We are not understanding one another.

But you could help by simply walking through a few questions I have.

I do not see how you are viewing election as a work of Christ. It appears to me that you are bypassing Christ alltogether in your view of election. But this may also be a misunderstanding.

You are numbered among the elect. How were you elected? What role does Christ play in your election? How do you view election (how is a man "elect")?

 

[David Lamb]

I agree. We are not understanding one another.

But you could help by simply walking through a few questions I have.

I do not see how you are viewing election as a work of Christ. It appears to me that you are bypassing Christ alltogether in your view of election. But this may also be a misunderstanding.

You are numbered among the elect. How were you elected? What role does Christ play in your election? How do you view election (how is a man "elect")?

I would just answer that by saying that I believe Christ to be eternal (as I am sure you do). I believe our great triune God was involved in the matter of election. As for how I (or anybody else) was elected, I know only what the Bible says. As far as I am aware, it doesn't go into details. It tells us when, but not how (apart, of course, from the vital point about it being "in Christ").

 

[JonC]

I would just answer that by saying that I believe Christ to be eternal (as I am sure you do). I believe our great triune God was involved in the matter of election. As for how I (or anybody else) was elected, I know only what the Bible says. As far as I am aware, it doesn't go into details. It tells us when, but not how (apart, of course, from the vital point about it being "in Christ").

We agree on Christ being eternal and God being involved in our election.

We disagree in the Bible not going into detail about election. I think thay you missed a lot of Scripture regarding election because of your presuppositions (not because you have not read the passages but because you have read them through a specific lens).

I sure we agree that Christ is the Elect of God and is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I am sure we agree that we are to test ourselves to make sure we are among the elect.

But we disagree in that I do not hold the Calvinistic framework. I believe we cannot know the Father except as Christ has revealed Him to us. He is the exact image of the Father.


To illustrate (poorly, but you'll get the gist of it) -

In March 1995 the 16th Eng BN was slotted to deploy to Bosnia. I was at Walter Reed (I was not among those chosen to deploy). But I changed my MOS and was assigned to the 16th Eng Bn. I was slotted to deploy since March 1995 (since I now belonged to that Bn) and deployed that December.


You were not numbered among the elect until you were reborn. Once you were in Christ you were chosen from the foundation of the World because He is the Elect from the foundation of the world.


Calvinists typically view election as man-centered (the Father elected men to be saved). Christ has nothing to do with Calvinistic election.

But, biblcally, flesh and blood will not enter the Kingdom of God. One must be born of the Spirit. The Elect is Christ. You were born to your mother, flesh, not elect. You were reborn of the Spirit, Christ in you. You are numbered among the elect.

Election is not about man but Christ and Christ in us.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No. I am saying Christ is the Elect.

Christ is not the elect. The elect are chosen in Him. That is, no one will be saved without Christ. '... Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.' We were not adopted as sons in eternity, but we were predestined to be so, and not without the cross-work of Christ.

He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

In the mind of God. He was actually slain in or around 33 AD. God has seated us in the heavenly places, but we're not there yet.

Men are not born physically as the elect. Men become elect.

Men are elect before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:3 etc.). They are saved in time, but they do not become elect - they are that already.

Their election is in Christ. They will be conformed to His image.

True.

Baby Steve is born and his parents rejoice. Steve is lost. Steve is not numbered among the elect.

Baby Steve is born a sinner, and is by nature an object of wrath. But that does not prevent him being elect. That's up to God.

Steve becomes saved, is reborn (born of the Spirit). Steve is now numbered among the elect. Steve is chosen from the foundation of the world because Steve is reborn. It is Christ in Steve, not reprobate Steve. Christ is the elect.

That is gobbledegook. 'Steve' was chosen before time began, and Christ was chosen to be his Redeemer. Think about it again.

Paul used "elect" correctly. He was speaking to Christians (those who have been reborn, those who are in Christ and Christ in them).

Yes.

To prove your point you have to provide a verse where lost men are called "elect", predestined to be saved.

Eph. 2:3ff. '....We.... were by nature the objects of wrath...' But Paul has already told 'us' that we were chosen (elect) before the foundation of the world. So it is possible for men and women to be lost - the objects of wrath - but also to be elect. 'But God ... even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).' We are not reborn in eternity; we are reborn in time, but so certain is our salvation that God sees it as having been at the time of Christ's death and resurrection.

You seem to be bypassing Christ in election.

Not at all, and nor was @David Lamb.

How do you view election (how is a man "elect")?

The choice by God in eternity of a vast number of guilty sinners for salvation through the work of Christ.
God the Father chooses this great crowd of sinners, gives them to the Son (John 17:2, 24), who saves them by paying the price of their redemption at the cost of His own blood. The Holy Spirit indwells them and seals them until the time of redemption.

Salvation is the work of the Triune God.