Reformed Baptists

[David Lamb]

Actually it is not meaningless. If one thinks they can never be lost, as you say, then how they live becomes meaningless.
Being saved is not a technicality. One is either saved or they are not.

But lets look at this for the other direction, could those who did not have their name in the book of life from before creation be saved?

What you have said is that ones salvation is based on when their name appeared in the book of life not on whether they believed or not. That is the issue that Calvinism wants to overlook.

According to the Bible, how a saved sinner lives is definitely not meaningless. Ephesians 2 says that sinners are saved by God's grace, not of works, but it also says that they are saved for good works which God prepared beforehand that they should walk in them (see Ephesians 2:8-10).

Regarding when the names are written in the book of life, there are eight verses, all in the New Testament, which mention the book of life, but not one of them says when the names were written in it.

 

[David Lamb]

You do not seem able to grasp the truth that if you cannot be lost than you are saved and since you say the "elect" cannot be lost then they are logically saved prior to any faith.

Today is Saturday. Tomorrow will be Sunday. Sunday, by definition, always follows Saturday. However, nobody says, "It must be Sunday already because Sunday must follow Saturday." In the same was (though I'm certainly not claiming that it's a perfect illustration), God's pre-creation choosing for salvation doesn't mean that salvation itself occurs before Creation. Another illustration, this one biblical, would be God foreordaining His Son. We are told:

NKJV 1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
1Pe 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
1Pe 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

The foreordaining doesn't mean that Jesus Christ actually came to earth to do the work of saving His people before the foundation of the world.

 

[atpollard]

How do you Calvinist's answer the question?

Was there any possibility of those not picked out prior to creation of being saved?

Jeremiah 13:23]
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin,
Or the leopard his spots?
[Then] you as well can do good
Who are accustomed to doing evil.”

Matthew 19:25-26 [NASB]
When the disciples heard [this,] they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
And looking at [them,] Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Can I give an answer different from the one God has given?
Men are changed by God, they cannot change without Him.
God saves, so there is no salvation without God’s foreknowledge and predestination.

 

[Reynolds]

I “believe” in double predestination, too. It is an inescapable logical conclusion of single predestination. However, I am careful to draw a hard line between what I believe to be true and what I can point to a verse and say “God says …”.

Can you point to a verse that teaches divine predestination towards reprobation from before the foundation of the world?

I am sorry that you feel they are “comedy” and “pitiful”, but it is a distinction that even the writers of the WCF and London Confession felt was important enough to avoid drawing a parallel and equal description between salvation and reprobation.

I agree fully with London confession. The word games come in when one tries to say that only rescuing a group, and allowing another group to remain unrescued, fully admitting that group has no ability to rescue themselves; does not equate to "double predestination". I see Romans 9:21 as emphatic proof for double predestination.

 

[Silverhair]

It's not a matter of logic, but of what God says in His word. He does say that election/choosing took place before the foundation of the world. He also says that to be saved, a sinner must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So the election is not being saved; nobody was actually saved before the foundation of the world.

David when the Calvinists say that those "elected" prior to creation cannot be lost that is saying that they are already saved. Under the Calvinist view if someone was not picked out prior to creation then they are lost and will go to hell. Conversely if someone is of your Calvinist "elect" then there is no possibility they will go to hell in other words they are saved. And that means they are saved without any faith required.

Calvinists have also said that you have to be saved prior to God giving you faith. The Calvinist view is the opposite of scripture.

 

[Salty]

This thread will be closed no sooner than 2330 GMT, 730 PM EDT, 430 PM PDT

 

[Kai]

God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own free will, freely and unchangeably, all thenigs that shall ever come to pass [Isaiah 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18] - Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any [James 1;13-15; 1 John 1:5] in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away [Acts 4;27-28; John 19:11]

The 1689 LBC is a document produced by imperfect humans, much like the rest of us, and perhaps without realizing it, they failed to see the logical inconsistency they were putting forth here.

If God decreed every evil act that comes to pass, knowing with certainty that it would happen, how is He not ultimately responsible for its occurrence? Simply saying He isn't the author of evil doesn't fully resolve that problem.

You are free to disagree with the Confession, but the compilers clearly did not believe in fatalism; and nor do I. The fact is that God is a whole lot smarter than we are.

I agree that God is infinitely wiser than we are, and I don't claim to have all the answers. And I'm not suggesting that the Confession teaches fatalism in the strict sense. My concern is that if God decreed every event, including every sinful choice, we still have to explain how human beings are ultimately responsible for those events while God bears no responsibility for decreeing them.

Scripture repeatedly holds people responsible for their choices and calls them to repent. It also portrays God responding to human actions, as we see with Nineveh in Jonah 3:10 and the principle laid out in Jeremiah 18:7-10. I don't think we have to make God's foreknowledge equivalent to causation or conclude that everything that happens was deterministically decreed by Him.

 

[Silverhair]

According to the Bible, how a saved sinner lives is definitely not meaningless. Ephesians 2 says that sinners are saved by God's grace, not of works, but it also says that they are saved for good works which God prepared beforehand that they should walk in them (see Ephesians 2:8-10).

Regarding when the names are written in the book of life, there are eight verses, all in the New Testament, which mention the book of life, but not one of them says when the names were written in it.

David my answer was regarding the Calvinist view where how one of the "elect" lived really does not matter as according to Calvinism those picked out prior to creation CANNOT be lost they will be in heaven no matter what they do.

Actually it is 7 of the 8 are in the NT.

If we look at Rev 17:8 we do find just what you say is not there.

Rev 17:8 "...And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from G575 the foundation G2602 of the world G2889,...: NKJV

G575 apó;
forth, from, away from; hence, it variously signifies departure; distance of time or place; Mounce

apó; prep. primarily meaning from. It governs the gen. and expresses what is strictly the idea of the gen. case itself like ek (G1537)
Therefore, the meanings that apó can have are from, away from, of. The Complete WordStudy Dictionary

1d) of a state of separation, that is of distance
1. physical, of distance of place
2. temporal, of distance of time Thayer

 

[Silverhair]

Today is Saturday. Tomorrow will be Sunday. Sunday, by definition, always follows Saturday. However, nobody says, "It must be Sunday already because Sunday must follow Saturday." In the same was (though I'm certainly not claiming that it's a perfect illustration), God's pre-creation choosing for salvation doesn't mean that salvation itself occurs before Creation. Another illustration, this one biblical, would be God foreordaining His Son. We are told:

NKJV 1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
1Pe 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
1Pe 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

The foreordaining doesn't mean that Jesus Christ actually came to earth to do the work of saving His people before the foundation of the world.

That is true of Christ but it does not hold for your Calvinist "elect" prior to creation.

Christ was physical whereas salvation in spiritual.

The issue is that according to your Calvinism those that were "elected" were guaranteed to be in heaven. Is that not what you and Martin have said?

So if they are guaranteed to be in heaven were they not saved, could they ever be lost? Not according to your Calvinist theology.

Your own words have betrayed you and Martin.

Even your TULIP/DoG show that faith is not what saves Calvinists it is your hope that you were one of those pre chosen ones but actually you have no way of knowing do you.

"From all eternity, without any prior view of our human behavior, God has chosen some unto election and others unto reprobation. The ultimate destiny of the individual is decided by God before that individual is even born..." RC Sproul, Chosen by God

 

[Silverhair]

Jeremiah 13:23]
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin,
Or the leopard his spots?
[Then] you as well can do good
Who are accustomed to doing evil.”

Matthew 19:25-26 [NASB]
When the disciples heard [this,] they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
And looking at [them,] Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Can I give an answer different from the one God has given?
Men are changed by God, they cannot change without Him.
God saves, so there is no salvation without God’s foreknowledge and predestination.

I agree that only God can and does save.
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, Eph 2:8

The Calvinist has those so called "elect" prior to creation saved through election not by grace through faith as the bible says.

And you still have not dealt with the elephant in your theology. But I can understand why Calvinists are so reluctant to deal with the issue as it would show the error of their theology.

"From all eternity, without any prior view of our human behavior, God has chosen some unto election and others unto reprobation. The ultimate destiny of the individual is decided by God before that individual is even born..." RC Sproul, Chosen by God

@atpollard try to give an answer from your theological position this time.

 

[atpollard]

Let’s review, shall we …


Your original question was

Was there any possibility of those not picked out prior to creation of being saved?

I offered an answer from God and a statement that I could not disagree with God.

Jeremiah 13:23]
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin,
Or the leopard his spots?
[Then] you as well can do good
Who are accustomed to doing evil.”

Matthew 19:25-26 [NASB]
When the disciples heard [this,] they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
And looking at [them,] Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Can I give an answer different from the one God has given?
Men are changed by God, they cannot change without Him.
God saves, so there is no salvation without God’s foreknowledge and predestination.

Just to clarify, you wanted to know if someone could be saved apart from the “election” of God.
God claimed that people cannot change their evil natures any more than they change the color of their skin or a leopard changes it’s spots … so “No, there is no salvation except the ‘election’ of God.”

The disciples asked Jesus “who can be saved?” in response to a statement about the impossible standard that men needed to meet. Jesus responded that salvation from human effort was “IMPOSSIBLE” (answering your question) and salvation was only possible with God (which is “God’s Elect”).

I stated that I agreed with God. I answered the question that those not ELECT have no hope of saving themselves - the leopard cannot change its spots, the man cannot change the color of his skin, meeting the standard of righteousness in impossible for man … only God can make it possible (that is the definition of ELECT).


Moving on to your response …

I agree that only God can and does save.

Then you and I and God are all in agreement that only God saving his ELECT will get you into heaven. If God does not save you (the non-elect) then as Jesus said “with man it is impossible”.

I do not think that I can be any clearer.

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, Eph 2:8

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The 1689 LBC is a document produced by imperfect humans, much like the rest of us, and perhaps without realizing it, they failed to see the logical inconsistency they were putting forth here.

If God decreed every evil act that comes to pass, knowing with certainty that it would happen, how is He not ultimately responsible for its occurrence? Simply saying He isn't the author of evil doesn't fully resolve that problem.

I agree that God is infinitely wiser than we are, and I don't claim to have all the answers. And I'm not suggesting that the Confession teaches fatalism in the strict sense. My concern is that if God decreed every event, including every sinful choice, we still have to explain how human beings are ultimately responsible for those events while God bears no responsibility for decreeing them.

Scripture repeatedly holds people responsible for their choices and calls them to repent. It also portrays God responding to human actions, as we see with Nineveh in Jonah 3:10 and the principle laid out in Jeremiah 18:7-10. I don't think we have to make God's foreknowledge equivalent to causation or conclude that everything that happens was deterministically decreed by Him.

Your problem is that you have to reconcile verses like Psalm 139 which I posted earlier (Post #84) and Matthew 10:29-31; Acts 2:23; Proverbs 16:33 etc., which tell us that God knows and directs all things and that not even a sparrow dies outside of His will, with others like Deut. 32:4 and James 1:13-17 which tell us that God is wholly righteous and does not force anyone to sin.
I don't have any problem reconciling these verses, but I'm interested to know how you do it.

 

[Kai]

I don't have any problem reconciling these verses, but I'm interested to know how you do it.

I don't have a problem reconciling those passages either. I believe God is sovereign, has exhaustive foreknowledge, and nothing takes Him by surprise. Where I disagree is the assumption that God's knowledge and sovereignty require Him to causally decree every human decision.

Acts 2:23, for example, says Jesus was delivered up according to God's predetermined plan, yet it also holds those who crucified Him responsible for their actions. God can sovereignly accomplish His purposes without being the author or cause of the sinful choices people make along the way.

I also think James 1:13-17 deserves serious consideration. If God does not tempt anyone with evil, I think we should be careful about going beyond Scripture and concluding that He decrees every sinful desire and action. I don't claim to understand exactly how God's foreknowledge works, but I don't see Scripture explicitly equating foreknowledge with causation.

 

[Silverhair]

Let’s review, shall we …


Your original question was


I offered an answer from God and a statement that I could not disagree with God.

Just to clarify, you wanted to know if someone could be saved apart from the “election” of God.
God claimed that people cannot change their evil natures any more than they change the color of their skin or a leopard changes it’s spots … so “No, there is no salvation except the ‘election’ of God.”

The disciples asked Jesus “who can be saved?” in response to a statement about the impossible standard that men needed to meet. Jesus responded that salvation from human effort was “IMPOSSIBLE” (answering your question) and salvation was only possible with God (which is “God’s Elect”).

I stated that I agreed with God. I answered the question that those not ELECT have no hope of saving themselves - the leopard cannot change its spots, the man cannot change the color of his skin, meeting the standard of righteousness in impossible for man … only God can make it possible (that is the definition of ELECT).


Moving on to your response …

Then you and I and God are all in agreement that only God saving his ELECT will get you into heaven. If God does not save you (the non-elect) then as Jesus said “with man it is impossible”.

I do not think that I can be any clearer.

Actually you did not answer the question but you did try to deflect around it.

The question. Was there any possibility of those not picked out prior to creation of being saved?

That refers to the so called Calvinist view of some are elect before creation which you should have know or did and just wanted to avoid it.

But even your answer just shows the Calvinist manmade view. Calvinist think they were so special that God elected them prior to creation and only they are saved.

FYI no one is elect until they are in the Elect One Christ Jesus which means saved.

Can man choose to trust in God for their salvation? Of course they can and God holds them responsible for not doing so.

The bible is clear that God saves sinners that have trusted in His risen son not your Calvinist "elect".

If you learn nothing else remember this:
1Ti_1:15 This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the worst.

1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

What Must I Do To Be Saved?
In view of who Christ is and what He has done for me on the cross, it is my responsibility to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Act_16:30-31; Joh_3:16-18, Joh_3:36). This means I must come to Christ (Joh_6:35-37) and receive Him as my personal Saviour and Lord (Joh_1:12; Rom_6:23)

@atpollard you are so close to the truth yet so far from it.

 

[Salty]

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