Reformed, Calvinist or both?

[psalms109:31]

Persist

They will only be grafted in again if they do not continue in thier unbelief.

You are trying to make the scripture say what they are not.

The natural branches were cut out for unbelief, so do not be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches they will not spare us either.

They were chosen but yet unable to enter because of unbelief.

Our guarentee is not election, but to trust in the eternal rock, Jesus.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Evangelical Predestinarian here....

 

[David Michael Harris]

When you are saved, there is involved a transaction that is legal and binding. You cannot alter that because of your response to Grace.

Some of us, me included, mess things up. It cannot thwart God's Grace. Otherwise Grace would cease to be Grace. Salvation is a eternal point in our life.

Angels rejoice.

Although you will experience His discipline.

 

[psalms109:31]

Saved

We are saved when we endure to the end, not before or after.

That is what Jesus, and I rather have Jesus testimony over mens. We we are one with Jesus we are never alone.

John 8:
The Validity of Jesus' Testimony
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."

14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

Follow Jesus and not men, continue to trust in Jesus and He will not lead astray like men will.

 

[Allan]

We are saved NOW and FOREVER, Psalms.

We are Saved because of what Christ has done FOR us on/through the Cross, the grave and the resurrection. We are assured of this salvation because in order to have this Gift of grace upon us, we must/are placed into the very body of Jesus via His Holy Spirit AT THE MOMENT of salvation. And to further procure this assure we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and SEALED UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMTION. As if this is not assurence enough Jesus promises that those who come to Him, HE WILL NEVER LOSE them, for the Father garentees this as being His will in that Jesus will raise up those who have beleived in that Last Day (the Day of Redemtion)!

scripture even states TODAY is the day of SALVATION.
Grace destroys anything that could be added to keep you saved.

My question for you, is how DO YOU EXPLAIN Peter denial of Jesus, 3x's. And never once does Jesus mention this most blasphamous sin that has just excluded Peter from salvation forever. (since once you loose salvation you can NEVER have it again) ?

And the denial of ALL the other disciples which did the same thing to their eternal salvation, and again Jesus NEVER mentions this?


P.S. No one questions the validity of Jesus nor the fact that He does not lie. We are stating you are not looking at the whole of scripture but are YOURSELF following Mens teaching. When God states our salvation is securly sure, and you find some verse that contradict that - either God lied or you have misunderstood something.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

Salvation are for those who endure to the end.

Peter stuck around, He didn't kill Himself for the denial. Jesus came back and gave him his payment for his denial. That He will face a terible death, to feed His sheep.

We are going to fall, and sink into the water. If we do not put our eyes back on Jesus we will drown.

Jesus is our only hope that God gave to us and this world.

 

[Allan]

What!??

Peter stuck around, He didn't kill Himself for the denial. Jesus came back and gave him his payment for his denial. That He will face a terible death, to feed His sheep.

Reread your scriptures again.

1. Peter didn't stick around. He turned back and went back to his old life - being a fisherman.

2. Peter was not waiting around for Jesus, but Jesus had to GO FIND Peter.

3. His payment/punishment for DENYING CHRIST was to face a terrible death. You will find this NO WHERE in scripture that his death had ANYTHING to with his denial. His death was because of his stance for Christ NOT his denial of Him.

4. Feeding the sheep is not a punishment but a command to all Pastor/Elders. It also is not found nor insinuated in the scriptures.

We are going to fall, and sink into the water. If we do not put our eyes back on Jesus we will drown.

So you believe that Jesus would have let Peter drown, if he had not called out?

Jesus is our only hope that God gave to us and this world.

This is true, but what hope is there if your salvation is based upon your performance that at the first could not save and in the last will still not save.

 

[psalms109:31]

Hopelessness

Yes He did go back to a fisherman, but He didn't just gave out.

He was without the Spirit, It is not until Christ was lifted up that He would return the Holy Spirit upon the earth.

He repented of His evil, when He was given the word of God through Jesus Christ.

It is the Spirit that reminds us of the words of Christ, and only believers are given the Spirit, for the Holy Spirit is within the words of Jesus.

When we are not abiding in Christ and then repentof our evil way and believe again in His word and trust in Him we can return.

We are to go unto maturity are we not.

We are not to just continue to remind ourselves to believe and have to rent for our turning away away from Christ over and over. We are to worship God in Spirit and in truth.

If you remain in unbelief, you are Spirit less, for only believers are given the Holy Spirit.

Feeding His Sheep is a great responsibilty, that the blood of the ppl is in our hands as the scripture says'

Ezekiel 3:
18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [Or in] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.

20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

Man continue to want to blame God for thier life and death. It was the serpeant, it was the woman you gave, today it is because you have not chosen me or created me to have life.

God has placed life and death before you so choose Jesus and live.

Our salvation is based on Jesus and what He has done for us on the cross.

If you believe in Jesus you shall be saved and if not you shall be condemned. This is not what I have placed before you but God.

If you do not choose Jesus you will perish not because because God didn't choose, but you have walked away from the grace of God.

 

[Allan]

I thought that denying Jesus (3x's no less) and leaving when He said "if you turn back you are not worthy to follow me" and then going back to his old life - which had nothing to do with his faith, God, or enduring but the exact opposite that Peter would no longer be saved.

It is the very fact you state if we deny Christ that He will deny us, that I use Peter as a blaring example that is not about a moment of weakness but a lifestyle contrary to what a born-again beleiver who has been given a new man and a radically changed life will present. We as beleivers CAN NOT fall away nor WILL we live a life contrary towards Him.

Feeding Gods sheep is not, and I repeat not, a punishment for Peter or anyone. it is the responcibility of any and all Pastor/Teachers (specific) and even believers (disciples) in general. - "making disciples and teaching them all things whatsoever I have commanded you..."

the rest is all well and good, but the context IS - a Born-Again believer CAN NOT loose their salvation as it is based upon the finished work of Christ that has changed our very lives that we are not of those who would fall away.

 

[Allan]

Still one question from my post before,

Your Quote:
We are going to fall, and sink into the water. If we do not put our eyes back on Jesus we will drown

.

My Question:
So you believe that Jesus would have let Peter drown, if he had not called out?

 

[psalms109:31]

Destruction

If we are not following Jesus we are headed for destruction.

Disowning is a total disowning, not a temporal.

When we are not following Jesus we are on the road to destruction.

Peter hope and our hope is Jesus.

 

[psalms109:31]

Test

How did Peter pay?

It is not his calling to feed His sheep, he paid by telling what he would do to feed His sheep three times. It started with feeding lambs and then to feed His sheep. He repaid three times for his denial of three times

His mission was turned from denial to a servant of feeding His sheep, and the final test of his life was even in death he did not deny Jesus.

 

[Allan]

The very FACT Peter was a disciple and then called an Apostle as the other 11 were, mandated they were to be teachers of the word.Being a Pastor and or teacher is not a punishment but a gift of God in you and of you to the church.

Jesus did not punish Peter for his denial but restored him by verifying the very thing he was afraid of, disqualifying himself from the his God appointed ministry.

This is why Jesus told him to feed the sheep.

The argument can be made the lambs represent new converts soon to come.
The first sheep Jesus mentions is Israel (John 10)
The second Sheep Jesus refers to are the Gentile sheep (John 10 as well)

But neither is really important other than the fact that Jesus was confirming to Peter his position and ministry was not lost and he was not disowned.

Look at this verse following these pertaining to the death of Peter:

Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

His death that Jesus told him about was not a punishment, but is going to give God glory. NOTE SOMETHING: Before Peter had finished (endured to the end) Jesus ALREADY knew that Peters death would glorify God. Jesus KNEW how Peter would end his life and that how would be a glory to God. God is the one who kept Peter that he WOULD endure and therefore Jesus could say with absolute certainty how Peter would die and that God WOULD be glorified.


Also you still didn't address the fact that Peter turned back to his old life and that Jesus had to go find him and restore him.

 

[psalms109:31]

Heart

We do not know Peter heart.

He went back to his old life, but does not mean he was hoping for His return.

We are punished by our denial of Christ, we are headed for destruction for this.

We need Christ to restore us again.

To repent of our denial and return back to Him, and we begin again refreshed.

But we are to move on to maturity.

Not to convince ourselves to believe, but just believe, or continue to be repenting of our unbelief.

We are to worship God in SPIRIT and in TRUTH

 

[Allan]

We do not know Peter heart.

True, but scripture gives us a pretty clear picture.

He went back to his old life, but does not mean he was hoping for His return.

Actaully scripture states they didn't put 2 and 2 together about His resurrection until AFTER they saw Him. So yes, he did go back to his old life expecting not see his Lord again. However, I will NOTE: He may have denied him and not thought He would rise from the dead in 3 days, but he did love Jesus.

We are punished by our denial of Christ, we are headed for destruction for this

"We" who? Believer or unbeliever?

To repent of our denial and return back to Him, and we begin again refreshed.

Peter never repented, never sought out Jesus but thought him dead.
Peter and John running to the empty tomb where someone Mary said stole His body:

Jhn 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
Jhn 20:10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.

This answer as well links to my first statement about knowing his heart.

 

[Allan]

*Bump*

:laugh:

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

We need to continue to follow Jesus and He will open our minds to understand His word.

Until Jesus was resurrected from the dead and set on the right hand of the Father, we are lost without Jesus.

Then only then that He poured out the Holy Spirit on believers.

Peter punish as our own.

God has forgotten our sins when we repent, but we have not.

When we start disagreeing with the words of Jesus, we should here Him saying to us get behind me satan.

When we start denying Christ, we should hear Jesus say feed my sheep.

Imagine Jesus telling you get behind me satan, could you ever forget it?

 

[Allan]

Peter punish as our own.

Uh, your brain was faster than your fingers, clarify please.

God has forgotten our sins when we repent, but we have not.

Make this statement much clearer as well, since I have repented of my sins and am secure in His salvation and am persuaded that He is able to keep all that I have committed unto Him against that day! The later part of your statement is an absolute one in that: "we" (ALL) HAVE NOT.

When we start disagreeing with the words of Jesus, we should here Him saying to us get behind me satan.

WHat do you mean here?
Are you saying that if one disagrees with what "YOU" believe Jesus is speaking. It is one thing believe everything Jesus said it is another to calim you believe what Jesus says and then someone show you scripture that is in direct contention with that veiw. (example: Jesus was a man because Jesus never actaully said I am God, when Scripture proves conclusively that Jesus IS God Himself and did in fact say so but not to our present day equivocation.

When we start denying Christ, we should hear Jesus say feed my sheep

This is the most inane statement I have heard in a long time.
Peter was NOT, and I repeat NOT punished by Jesus via sentenced to feeding the Sheep. That was what he was being trained for during his 3 years WITH JESUS. They were disciples then Apostles both give the conotaiton fo teaching (feeding) others (those sheep). Please show me where it states or alludes to in the sciptures that this (feeding the sheep) teaching other believers was his punishment. Even the Death Jesus tells him about was to show that Peter will glorify God even in a horrible death before Peter ever bagan his ministry.

 

[psalms109:31]

Repentance

If we have repented that means that we turn away from the old way of life.

If you continue to go back to the vomit, then you have not repented

I mean to follow Jesus and to stand firm.

For everytime Peter denied Christ, Jesus replaced it with feed my sheep.

We are not to deny Christ, for if we disown Jesus He will disown us, as if we were never apart of Him.

Instead of denying Jesus we are to feed His sheep.

Only believers are His and will be saved, unbelievers are condemned for they have not believed in the one sent.

So do not boubt but believe Jesus and His word.

Believers will be saved and non-believers will be condemned.

 

[David Michael Harris]

When you believe ( become a Christian ), you pass from Death To Life. God is out to save us not lose us and He is Soveriegn. Only one is lost, So that Scripture might be fulfilled. He HAS translated us ( Christians ) from darkness to the Son of His Love. Notice the past tense.

This thought that we are only saved when we finish our lives is heresy. Beware.