Reformed Church services

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think Rev is touching the flesh of Christ in a very significant way that many oof these "academics " do not or will not do.

Thomas was told to reach in and then he would know. Brother's, if we are not out there in the trenches & proving that we are willing to be there with them...then who are we really?

 

[Revmitchell]

There are a couple of folks who have responded to my posts but do not understand a word of what I have said. It would serve you well to go back and read my original post and the post I responded to and move forward from there. You are missing the point.

And just for clarification the word ignorant is a reference to those who have never been in the trenches. Nothing else.

Silly statements of regulative and normative principles, expository or topical, decoration or no decorations, praise music or no praise music are all distractions and ungodly and have no value in the trenches. These are arguments of those who sit in their Ivory towers but are willing to sacrifice nothing. These arguments do nothing to further the gospel or glorify God. These are the musings of those who think way to much of themselves and what they "think" they can pull out of scripture with their intellect.

You can distract and try to redirect by avoiding specifics and just using "tools" in a general sense. But I aint buying it.

 

[Revmitchell]

but they do not say...well....i do not need training...

And let me make it very clear. Nothing I have said should have led anyone to believe I said anything of the sort. Again go back and reread my posts.

 

[Herald]

RevMitchell brings up some excellent points about "in the trenches" ministry. But to discount the pursuit of how to worship God properly does not mean the former is excluded. As a topic all to itself, how we are supposed to worship God is important. Are we really to buy into an "anything goes" worship style, or does the Bible provide instruction on how to worship? If it does, then understanding what the Bible has to say about worship, and then worshiping in the biblical manner, is a worthy pursuit. As with any other point of theology, if it does not impact our practice then it is just head knowledge. In other words how we live out our faith is just as important as understanding our faith. No sane person would suggest that a surgeon should not be an expert in his craft. How much more so the man who handles God's word, and even leads a congregation? He may lead by example (as RevMitchell so aptly described), but that should not be at the exclusion of knowing the Word of God, and how it impacts the functions of the church.

 

[Herald]

With all due respect to SolaSaint, not all Reformed churches worship in the manner he suggested. Some do sing only Psalms. Others old hymns. The majority of Reformed churches are eclectic in their music. You will not see special music or solos because, in the opinion of Reformed churches, this focuses attention on the individual. The purpose of worship is to glorify God. You will see less praise bands then in contextualized churches. There is a strong aversion to 2nd Commandment violations, so you will not see images of Christ in worship (this includes a replica of the baby Jesus in a manger). You will experience the reading of the Word, prayer, congregational singing, the preaching of the Word, baptism, and the Lord's Supper.

These practices will vary from church to church and denomination to denomination. The reason you will see an orientation towards the Regulative Principle of Worship among Reformed churches is not to be legalistic. The reason is to worship God in the manner He has prescribed through Scripture. It becomes legalism when those who worship in the Reformed manner believe they are self-justified because of their actions. SolaSaint may be confusing self-justification with obedience.

 

[Revmitchell]

Still not getting it. If you are not in the trenches, each and every one of us, then your theology is going to be weak and in most cases completely wrong. You cannot understand biblical truth just sitting behind a desk and studying it. You have to be living it right where you are and living it in a sacrificial way. Until then your theology has no value. Not for you and not for anyone else. Jesus did not call anyone to sit in ivory towers and point fingers at everyone else. That was the problem the pharisees had. If you are not in the trenches living it you have no true understanding of God or His word. Without the perspective that only comes from living it you cannot understand it.

 

[Herald]

Still not getting it. If you are not in the trenches, each and every one of us, then your theology is going to be weak and in most cases completely wrong. You cannot understand biblical truth just sitting behind a desk and studying it. You have to be living it right where you are and living it in a sacrificial way. Until then your theology has no value. Not for you and not for anyone else. Jesus did not call anyone to sit in ivory towers and point fingers at everyone else. If you are not in the trenches living it you have no true understanding of God or His word.

My friend, I am getting it. I think we disagree on what "getting it" is. We may also disagree on what it means to be in the trenches. Not every church is the same, nor does it present the same opportunities of ministry. One church may be in the inner city and encounter more of the things you had described previously. Another church may be in the country and have a completely different set of challenges. Perhaps the trench that I encounter is not as dramatic as yours, but it is where God has placed me at the present time. We minister to both saint and sinner. I will not be so proud as to say that we cannot do better. But minister we do.

I also can't help but feel that you are accusing me of something. Maybe you're not, but the tenor of your words gives that impression. If so, that's a presumptuous thing to do when you don't even know me. Contending for the truth is part of the function of a minister of the Gospel. It is not the only function (which I said previously), but it is a function. Not only is it possible to do both (contend for the truth and work in the trenches), I believe it is required.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well you will just have to deal with God on all of that. And no your not getting it. I have lived in the city, I have lived in suburbia, I have lived in rural areas and even out here next tot he res. I have done mission work in India and in Israel. You can't tell me about the differences among the different areas. If someone want to hang on to their pathetic little notions of regulative and normative principles, praise or no praise, etc. go ahead. People have not failed to get in the trenches because their experiences are different. They have failed to get in the trenches because they have refused to. Period. Instead they are only worried about going back and forth to work, showing up at church in Sunday, and sitting in their ivory towers pointing fingers at everyone else over the insignificant things they want to "contend" for. Unless it effects the gospel directly it is not as important as some would like things to be.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You grew up in an urban setting Herald... are you there now?

 

[Revmitchell]

I'll put it this way, How much of your life are you willing to give up in order to be involved in the lives of those who need the gospel? What sacrifices do we physically make? Time, money, comfort, frequency etc. Just how dramatic things turn out is irrelevant.

 

[thomas15]

And let me make it very clear. Nothing I have said should have led anyone to believe I said anything of the sort. Again go back and reread my posts.

I go over there from time to time and agree with you totally. I personally have no problem with academic study and appreciate it but there comes the time when the believer has to come to the Father like a child comes to their parent.

The thing that I find most fascinating about the PB, and I have mentioned this before is how even in the covenant forum they stumble badly when asked to explain covenant theology from a Biblical perspective. Another thing I find most telling is how they define (or better stated mis-define) dispensationalism. And while I personally feel that it is acceptable for the believer to drink a little wine for thy stomach sake, I would never advertise my favorite brew on the internet on a christian forum. This begs the question why would some be critical of a christmas tree and not be critical of those among their membership who have beer avatars?

 

[SolaSaint]

All,

My intention wasn't to create a debate or argument on how Reformed folk minister or live the Christian life, it was about how they worship in church.

Thanks Icon for the post on Regulative Principal, I heard of it but never understood it, I do now and can better understand them.

I do agree with Rev on some points that these people seem to stay in their ivory towers and point fingers and this is just what I hear from them on their board. (Puritanboard.com). However, I don't personally know any of them and they may be some of the most compassionate, in-the-trenches Christians around, but it doesn't come across much in their posts on the board.

 

[saturneptune]

Let me add something else, if you are to stick those legalisms and catechisms in the face of the people I minister to it will mean nothing. If you talk about expository verses topical to a people with no hope it will be like talking Latin.

We need to be sharing Jesus and just why He is their hope and their light. The things we talk about here on this forum have no meaning outside of our moment and time while doing it.

And those who want dry dead churches devoid of the glory of praise and the beauty of color and decorations know nothing about the God I serve. They puff themselves up with knowledge and the ability they "think" they have to debate and discuss "intellectual" issues.

Let them come out here and get in the trenches with me on the reservation. Let them go to third world situations like India or Africa and spend some time living with putrid conditions for the glory of God.

Then come back and talk to me about Catechisms. Outside of that they can take their catechisms and legalisms and godless worship and stick it up their nose.

It would be an honor to have you as pastor of any church I served in. The thing I cannot understand about the rigidity of some of the present orders of worship is how short sighted people's minds are. While personally I do not care for the modern praise music, that does not mean there is anything wrong with them, or other variances in our normal worship, as long as the service is Scriptural and praises and honors the Lord. There was a web site, I cannot recall where off the top of my head, that attempted to show what some of the hymns in Psalms would sound like. They were totally different than our present traditional hymns. I doubt most would like them. It amazes me how we as Christians take songs, traditions, Bible versions from a select point in time in history, and make them the only way to worship. That points to a closed and legalistic mind, which is exactly what we do not need. There is nothing more or less sacred about hymns written between 1700 and 1900 than any other period of history.

As far as the creeds, catechisms, etc that man has devised over the centuries, no thanks. We need to be telling people about Jesus, not memorizing and chanting what someone thinks would ought to believe collectively hundreds of years ago. A parrot can do that. Another example would be the Amish that think wearing clothes like they do on "Little House on the Prairie" is sacred, or Amish using no electricity, or the Church of Christ using no musical isntruments. These are things that have absolutley nothing to do with worshiping the Lord.

Whether the year 212 or 2012, we are here to tell others the Good News, and worship and praise the Lord, not follow the lead of a long dead collection of theologeans.

 

[thomas15]

All,

My intention wasn't to create a debate or argument on how Reformed folk minister or live the Christian life, it was about how they worship in church.

I understand and appreciate your concerns but I think some are trying to demonstrate that some in the conservative reformed tradition put their dogma before the clear teaching of Scripture. This is apparent in the posts of our brethern on the PB. I mean it's right there in black and white and on display for the entire world to see. So we commment.

 

[SolaSaint]

Is it possible to have such a High view of scripture that a Christian can squelch the Holy Spirit? What I mean is; do some of these Reformed folks keep their nose in the scriptures so much that they cannot see the world around them? Didn't Jesus warn the Pharisees of this?

Don't get me wrong, I think we all should have a high view of scripture, but I think it can evolve into a legalistic mindset if we ignore the nudging of the Holy Spirit. IMO

 

[thomas15]

From my observations, I think for every poster there who has his/her nose imbedded in the Bible there are an equal or higher number of posters who have Calvin's Institutes and/or the WCF transcribed on the insides of their eyelids.

Is it possible to have such a High view of scripture that a Christian can squelch the Holy Spirit? What I mean is; do some of these Reformed folks keep their nose in the scriptures so much that they cannot see the world around them? Didn't Jesus warn the Pharisees of this?

Don't get me wrong, I think we all should have a high view of scripture, but I think it can evolve into a legalistic mindset if we ignore the nudging of the Holy Spirit. IMO

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

From my observations, I think for every poster there who has his/her nose imbedded in the Bible there are an equal or higher number of posters who have Calvin's Institutes and/or the WCF transcribed on the insides of their eyelids.

Wow....thats a slap. Let me ask you, have you ever read 1689 Baptist Confessions of Faith before you start criticizing it (Thats the Baptist Confessions vs Presbyterian & Reformed).

Then, there are people like me who consider myself baptist but side with Doctrines of Grace theology......what is your "Opinion" of us here in BB that believe thus?

 

[SolaSaint]

Tom, I think you're right, but they truly believe The Institutes and the WCF to be 100% true to scripture. Don't they? However seems like they refer to the WCF as much as they do scripture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is it possible to have such a High view of scripture that a Christian can squelch the Holy Spirit? What I mean is; do some of these Reformed folks keep their nose in the scriptures so much that they cannot see the world around them?

May I ask why you are singling out the "Reformed" ? My wife is Dutch Reformed & she hates "The High & Mighty" arrogant ones..... Her answer to this is always, "What fruit are you producing"

I have a brother who is a Fundamentalist "Dispensational" Independent Church Pastor & we criticize them for their Legalistic outlook.....nobody but them is truly Christian. In fact we listened to a sermon given by one of their pastors vilifying everyone who doesn't measure up to their beliefs.....they are called the "Enemy"!

But to answer your question directly, what many do without understanding is quenching the Spirit. Remember the context in which the apostle Paul puts it....

1 Thessalonians 5:19-21

19 Quench not the Spirit.

20 Despise not prophesyings.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

 

[Herald]

Well you will just have to deal with God on all of that.

I don't "deal with God", I trust in Him. I'm not sitting at the negotiating table with the Almighty.

And no your not getting it.

Let's just agree to disagree on that.

I have lived in the city, I have lived in suburbia, I have lived in rural areas and even out here next tot he res. I have done mission work in India and in Israel.

So, what is that supposed to mean? Shall I show you my passport with the the nations I have been to?

You can't tell me about the differences among the different areas.

Really? Your international travel makes you immune to that?

If someone want to hang on to their pathetic little notions of regulative and normative principles, praise or no praise, etc. go ahead.

Pathetic little notions? For a man who adds "Rev" to his name you have a very low view of worship, as though worship is a by-word. Inconsequential.

People have not failed to get in the trenches because their experiences are different.

No one said or intimated that. In fact, I think our worship, on the Lord's Day, actually prepares us for service. How can you not want to serve God when you have just finished communing with Him?

They have failed to get in the trenches because they have refused to.

That's stating the obvious. No one ministers in the name of Christ because they don't want to.

Instead they are only worried about going back and forth to work, showing up at church in Sunday, and sitting in their ivory towers pointing fingers at everyone else over the insignificant things they want to "contend" for.

Some people do that. Sure. You find them all over the place. That is not limited to a discussion on worship.

Unless it effects the gospel directly it is not as important as some would like things to be.

That's the point. Worship does effect the Gospel directly. What do you think is proclaimed from the pulpit on the Lord's Day? Any pastor or elder worth his salt preaches the Gospel.

You think the argument is over how to make the components in worship fit together. I know that because you see the whole discussion as much to do about nothing. When we worship we come into the presence of God. We are lifted up into the heavenlies. We enter into His courts. That is why I count myself with those who see worship as one of the highest duties of a Christian. And before I am misquoted, I said "one of", not "only". Another "one of" is to serve the Lord, both to the saints and in our community.