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Reformed Churches Join Catholic-Lutheran Accord Regarding Justification
- Thread starter Jerome
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And that group has just endorsed heresy!
The shame is that ALL of them moved away from the Bible viewpoint, as RCC has never budged from hers!
Check out the WCRC website. World Communion of Reformed Churches Nothing there of a Reformed nature, not even a half-decent Statement of Faith.
You may rest assured that no Bible-believing church would have anything to do with it.
Move along, please! Nothing to see here except some self-important clerics making fools of themselves.
Not even a half-decent Statement of Faith? Ain't that the truth! Just stuff like the Belgic Confession, the Canons of Dort, etc.:
wcrc.ch/statements-of-faith
Check out the WCRC website. World Communion of Reformed Churches Nothing there of a Reformed nature, not even a half-decent Statement of Faith.
You may rest assured that no Bible-believing church would have anything to do with it.
Move along, please! Nothing to see here except some self-important clerics making fools of themselves.
I'm gonna research whats going on there, but WCRC
World Communion of Reformed Churches - Wikipedia
You Talking about 80 million people including Presbyterian church of USA
South baptist are 15 million.
World Wide bout 40 million baptist.
Now for the "heresy" you guys need to nail whats wrong with #15:
Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.
Here is the Lutheran-Catholic join declaration
Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
Here is the section on common understanding of justification.
3. The Common Understanding of Justification
14.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]
16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God's gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.
17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God's saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.
18.Therefore the doctrine of justification, which takes up this message and explicates it, is more than just one part of Christian doctrine. It stands in an essential relation to all truths of faith, which are to be seen as internally related to each other. It is an indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ. When Lutherans emphasize the unique significance of this criterion, they do not deny the interrelation and significance of all truths of faith. When Catholics see themselves as bound by several criteria, they do not deny the special function of the message of justification. Lutherans and Catholics share the goal of confessing Christ in all things, who alone is to be trusted above all things as the one Mediator (1 Tim 2:5f) through whom God in the Holy Spirit gives himself and pours out his renewing gifts. [cf. Sources for section 3].
The World Communion of Reformed Churches has no statement of faith. It leaves that to the member bodies, some of which ignore their confessions and some of which hold them very dearly. Example: PC-USA vs. the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
I read the entire joint statement many years ago and was less than impressed. It basically outlines what Lutherans mean and what Catholics mean when using terms such as justification by faith and how they differ and promised not presume damnation on the other. Most Lutheran and Reformed bodies have long ago given up on insisting on their founding theology that it really doesn't make a difference. (Interesting that one of the members of the Reformed communion is the United Church of Christ, whose heritage is basically congregationalism and Calvinism and can't even muster a proper Trinitarian statement in its statement of faith.)
I read the entire joint statement many years ago and was less than impressed. It basically outlines what Lutherans mean and what Catholics mean when using terms such as justification by faith and how they differ and promised not presume damnation on the other. Most Lutheran and Reformed bodies have long ago given up on insisting on their founding theology that it really doesn't make a difference. (Interesting that one of the members of the Reformed communion is the United Church of Christ, whose heritage is basically congregationalism and Calvinism and can't even muster a proper Trinitarian statement in its statement of faith.)
What 'many' churches believe is one thing. It is not necessary for a member of WCRC to accept any of those confessions.
The nearest thing to a WCRC confession of faith is found here: Governance It is at least Trinitarian, but precious little else.
These tin-pot attempts to speak 'Peace, peace, when there is no peace' are two a penny.
What you will not find in these articles is the word 'Imputation.' The Church of Rome will not have it there. Also, whatever Roman Catholics are to understand by the articles, it is not justification by faith alone, because:
The Church [of Rome] affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. 'sacramental Grace' is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament [Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), Para 1129]
If anyone shall say that by the said sacraments of the New Law, grace is not conferred from the work that has been worked ['ex opera operato'] but that faith alone in the divine promise suffices to obtain grace; let him be anathema [Council of Trent, Canon 8]
Justification is conferred in baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of His mercy [Catechism, Para 1992]
Note the word 'conferred.' The Church of Rome uses it instead of 'imputed.' Because the 'conferred' inner righteousness is said to be located in the person and not in Christ, it can be lost and may need to be 'conferred' over and over again:
'.....The sacrament of penance offers a new opportunity to convert and recover the grace of justification. The fathers of the Church present this sacrament as 'the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace [Catechism, Para 1446]
The teaching of 'conferred' justification is necessary for Rome because she equates the work of her sacraments with the work of the Holy Spirit. Again:
'Sacramental grace' is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament [Catechism, Para 1129]
Thus the unhappy devotee of the Church of Rome is bound, not to Christ, but to the Church that administers the false sacraments.
To talk of agreement on Justification between true, Bible-believing churches and the Church of Rome is a nonsense while Rome continues with her sacramentalism.
Good points, Martin; we need to remember that the great weakness of the Reformed churches is the acceptance & practice of infant baptism. That leads to the vital question:
How does a sinner become a Christian?
RCs are 'baptised' - Christened as babies, confirmed as 7-9 y-olds, & thereafter are accepted as Christians, as long as they accept the authority of the RC 'church' & do not reject the 'faith.'
Good works aren't necessary for salvation, so is a sinful life evidence of the absence of saving faith? Confession, penance & purgatory can deal with most sins.
Are so-called Reformed churches - WCRC - faithful Gospel churches? They may be, but I suspect that genuine Reformed, non-affiliated, will hold the same Gospel as baptists, & expect to see genuine conversion & a living faith..
So you are saying according to Catholicism you can only be justified if you are baptized, correct?
And now i'm going to give you a chance to re-read and state your sources to prove if that is actually what we believe.
Hint: Look for the word "ONLY" and "ALONE", as in Justification is ONLY conferred in Baptism. Lets not scribble in words that are not there.
A rose by any other name is still a rose.
I think it would help instead of using our vocabulary of Sacraments that we use its meaning GIFT OF GOD. Among these gifts of God is forgiveness of sins.
To say you don't need sacraments is to say you don't need God's gift.
We can dump this word "sacrament" Its use is only to categorize the gifts of God, one of which particularly known as "PENANCE" or Reconciliation/Confession contains God's actual forgiveness.
Which is only possible to receive FROM GOD. ONLY GOD, Jesus Christ forgives sins.
For example it is POSSIBLE for God to forgive your sins, out of the blue even for no particular merit on your part, and for not particular quality you posses like faith.
Also it would be one step better to claim there is a church and Catholics are not it, then to claim that the church is not the body of Christ whom he is one flesh with, ephesians 5.
Brother if when you say "MY CHURCH" whether your baptist, SDA, pentocostal, catholic, ect., If that is not truly inclusive of Jesus Christ, don't waste your time, its time to move on and FIND JESUS CHRIST.
If you say "MY CHURCH" cannot forgive sins, Leave it, you need to find Jesus Christ, His church does forgive sins, Jesus Christ is the head of the church, it is real and it really gets done.
This is some very high level theological doublespeak. The reality has not changed--Council of Trent is still in effect. The mother of apostasy, aka, mother of harlots, has not changed. She continues to call back her daughters--on her terms, of course.
How many times does one have to reform apostasy to get Truth?
Real New Testament Churches do not have their roots in Rome.
See the book called: "The Trilemma: Death By Three Horns", by J.R. Graves, circa 1860.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
How many times does one have to reform apostasy to get Truth?
Real New Testament Churches do not have their roots in Rome.
See the book called: "The Trilemma: Death By Three Horns", by J.R. Graves, circa 1860.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
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I'd like to get more details on this. Because as far as the Trent lines given here a disagreement is coming from denial of our meaning of sacraments and imposing one's own meaning.
If you insist sacraments means pizza despite the meaning Catholics declare there is no way I could even declare Trent to be true.
And am I given the same courtesy to declare that when you say saved by faith alone well you mean pizza alone?
A gift from God is a sacrament, And when we Catholics talk about the seven sacraments its particular gifts one of which includes reconciliation the forgiveness from God by whatever means God dictates.
I'm pretty sure we all agree God needs to forgive us to be saved.
I don't think you can have read my post. Read it again and see if I said that the Church of Rome claims that justification is ONLY conferred in baptism. All I did was quote your catechism to you. But if justification is conferred in baptism AT ALL, it cannot be by faith alone, can it? Here's another extract, this time from the 'Code of Canon Law,' 849:-
Baptism ,the gate to the sacraments, necessary for salvation by actual reception or at least by desire, is validly conferred only by a washing of true water with the proper form of words. Through baptism, men and women are freed from sin and reborn as children of God, and, configured to Christ by an indelible character, are incorporated in the Church [of Rome]
And baptism, to the Church of Rome, almost invariably means infant baptism. Here are the words of a former Roman Catholic priest:
For 21 years I baptized an average of 30 babies a month. I assured the mothers and godparents that their children were now children of God. This is what the priest is given to say, according to the proper form of words: 'dearly beloved, this child has been reborn in baptism. He (she) is now called a child of God, for so indeed he (she) is.............' The greatest grief [of Roman Catholic priests] was the certainty that they would never see the mother or child again.......Ten or twelve years into the life of a parish priest, there often arises the strong suspicion that all that happens is the howling and tears of the infant, some wetness on the heads, and the Certificate of Baptism in the mothers' hands. for those who performed baptisms year after year, the official words advertising infant baptism rang like a cracked gong: 'The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifested in infant baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth' [Catechism, Para 1250. From 'Catholicism east of Eden' by Richard Bennett]
Amen! Maybe you should take your own advice. But you are trying to change the subject. The topic is Justification by Faith Alone and Rome doesn't teach it..
You're wriggling, but you're still on the hook. Bro. James never mentioned 'sacraments.' The word comes from the Latin and actually means 'an oath of allegiance.' I make no claim and have no desire to be an expert on the Church of Rome, but I've never heard 'sacrament' described as 'a gift from God.' Is that in your catechism? Or is it something you've made up for yourself?
The Concise Oxford Dictionary describes a sacrament as '[A] religious ceremony or act regarded as [an] outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual grace.' The real problems come when Rome insists that these ceremonies work ex opere operato, 'from the work that has been worked' without the need for faith.
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We seem to have a very dissimilar set of jargon. Shall we have a definition of terms?
Let us start with: APOSTASY. Please give a definition in 25 words or less using biblical terminology.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
I have heard the sacraments referred to as gifts. In reality, they are a yoke of bondage, particularly the one called The Eucharist. A person has to be a cannibal to maintain salvation. This is pure pagan idolatry from the beginning.
Even so, come Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
Even so, come Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
No unhappy people in my church brother. We are bound to the church Jesus Christ started here on earth, and thus bound to Him. The fact is, yours didn't show up until hundreds, upon hundreds, upon hundreds of years later.
You are the one who denies what all Christians believed from the very beginning of Christianity.
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