Reformed-no test for salvation

[johnp.]

First of all ILUVLIGHT I apologise for falling behind in the posts. A lot as been said and I have had no time to reply.

That you claim to know what goes on in most Churches seems to me that you are omnipotent. Are you? No. Then stop saying 'most' Churches.

"Come out of her." The command has yet to be given so we do not know for sure which 'her' is meant.
It maybe, and it's looking good, that the end is upon us sometime soon. Even so we are to build up not pull down the Church of Christ.

This warning is about a Church or religious organization. This is not the body of Christ as a church but the organization.

Israel was a type of the Church. It was the type that put Christ to death so you need not concern yourself about me, I am awake. If the Church is attacked the Church is attacked. We are the Church.

Never fool yourself in to thinking that deception isn't sitting right in the same pew next to you.

Of course it is. It is not only from deliberate attempts at weakening but also from the well meaning lost. Enough crap is aimed at the Church without the Church joining in. Edify.

I have to agree it is rampant in most churches.

Do you know most Churches? That is most Christians? People are people, the Church of Christ is not rudderless but is exactly where the Head wants it to be. Any attack against Her is an attack against Him and that has implications if it comes from within. In my opinion.

To Ray

I don't know how many Mormon wives you have but they tend to come with the same number of Mothers. The best of British to you.
It rankles: 2 a : to produce or continue to produce an effect resembling a festering sore. And that is what all attacks made from within do.

Do Christians frown on

in England?

I'm a Calvinist, I'm meant to be miserable.

johnp.

 

[Ray Berrian]

That is most Christians? People are people, the Church of Christ is not rudderless but is exactly where the Head wants it to be. Any attack against Her is an attack against Him.

I agree that Christ is the Head of the universal Christian Church and it is NOT rudderless, that's for sure! When pastors or Elders rebuke the congregation through preaching it is not attacking them; in fact it is done to edify and strengthen them.

Christ was ministering in the seven churches of Revelation chapters two through three and was, if you will, the Captain of His ship and yet through the agent, the Apostle John, he rebuffed and rebuked them for their individual areas of backsliding as His church. Seven times in these chapters you will find that He says to each of His churches, 'I know thy works . . . ' [Revelation 2:2, 9, 13, 19 and 3:1, 8 and 15] A rebuke is worlds apart from an attack.

In Ephesians 2:10 we learn that He already has good works planned or ordained that we should be doing for Him. Apparently, the seven churches stepped off the path and were not exactly where the Head wanted them to be.

A Christian brother,
Ray

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi JohnP;
Isn't the internet cool I mean here we are sending messages to each other and although it's at the bottom of your post I never noticed you were from England. I guess I've been so busy typing that I failed to look. I was beginning to think of you as a Southern Baptist from Dallas Texas.

Do you know most Churches?

In the last year and some months I have been to quite a few. I've been looking for a church home. It has been frustrating to say the least if not discouraging. I'm Bible Baptist yet I haven't limited my visits to just these alone. I believe I have a fair grasp on what most Christian churches believe. However this is talking only about the organizations them selves.
What I believe I'm arguing is the fact that it's not the organization that makes up the body of Christ but the Christians themselves. The body of Christ is the church of Jesus Christ. It's not the Catholics or the Baptist or the Methodist the Calvinist or Arminians. The church of Jesus Christ is who ever is a true believer in Christ Jesus. Yet it itself is not an organization.
I understood Ray to mean the organization which most are corrupt. We see them fall it seems every day.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[johnp.]

Hello ILUVLIGHT.

I find that I cannot talk to you about Ray unless he says ok. Ok? Sorry.

Isn't the internet cool...

I think it is. (English understatement.)

I was beginning to think of you as a Southern Baptist from Dallas Texas.

Steady on old chap! 'Southern Baptist from Dallas'! Is an insult is it not? Sorry Dallas but that is what comes across. A cross to bear? Another attack on the Church? Be very wary of general accusations. Deal with what is in front of you.

Isn't the internet cool...

We should make more of this. This is where I am at. Personal contact Brother.

Isn't the internet cool...

This is what I think.
When God came down to Babylon and confused them and drove us apart, man, this is us, getting our act together again. The god's themselves. Nothing is beyond us! Except besting Him.
Pentecost was a reversal of sorts to the confusion of tongues. This is man's answer to that. Soon we will be able to talk to anyone anywhere and have it translated instantly. (tongues maybe an example of this. Even with a dictionary it took three attempts to spell it. Samuel Pepys has a lot to answer for.)

most are corrupt

There you go again, showing off your omniscience. Are you including numbers in the organisations or just the organisations? Give us the numbers! Can't? Don't say it then? It's a loser. Numbers count is good in war, you lose either way, it's God that counts. You know what the Elijah passages are about? On the mountain?

Colorado. You have no idea. Man, I had a school teacher, Miss Bell, loved her. She went there when I was about six. I still miss her. 50 years! Burnt into my brain.

In the last year and some months I have been to quite a few.

Looking for comfort are you? Sorry but you left yourself open to this. Jesus went to the shadow of the Church, Israel, and thought it good. Service, not comfort. Front line stuff.
The Jew was meant to worship at the Temple, and that is where we are meant to as well. Who you rub shoulders with is His concern not yours. The Temple is where the Lord is proclaimed. They won't let you? Give em time. Time and time again. Go local. Your mission field. Elijah felt lonely as well and you are just like him! Great it is! We have the power, we have the life. Why go amonst the sheep, go against the goats? Butt. There is the glory. Jesus did.

What I believe I'm arguing is the fact that it's not the organization that makes up the body of Christ but the Christians themselves.

Save your breathe it is wasted on me I know that. It does not make a difference to me. What do you seek in church? Your building up or the salvation of others? Go to a church that needs building up takes a man of God. Going to a Church that does not need building up takes a what? HaHa. I am in an Arminian Church, notice I say Church, not church, my brothers and sisters. I live among them and I will not be swayed, they will though, I am faithful, and even failure does not stop me. My God is mighty and wills all things. That's strength. Make friends is a good thing.

I am not having a dig at you. Really! We have to get along somehow, we are going to be together forever. Let's make a start down here 'a'? Tell me I'm wrong and I'll show you you are just like Elijah! Praise the lord for Elijah. All those things were written for us. "I'm all alone Lord." Elijah said! I have reserved, Rom 11:4, God said. He serves Himself. Be part of it, even in failure. I spent five years knocking on doors, in failure. Not so. In obedience. We can make a difference. To one or two is enough, or none. Go where the need is greatest and you fulfill the command, to the world. In my opinion.
Comfort now does not become us. Let us suffer. There will be long enough to enjoy life.
The body of Christ is the Christians. Only those going up not those going down but, those going down are in the church as well. I'm not into numbers, but if Israel is anything to go by we still don't know the numbers. We cannot tell who is and who ain't a part of the body. Stop knocking it. Jesus died for it. In my opinion.

In my opinion you can say whatever you like as long as you say in my opinion.

Isn't the internet cool...

What do you want to know? It's there. It's unbelievable.

The body of Christ is the church of Jesus Christ. It's not the Catholics or the Baptist or the Methodist the Calvinist or Arminians. The church of Jesus Christ is who ever is a true believer in Christ Jesus. Yet it itself is not an organization.

It is organised! It's Head is Jesus. Don't forget that the Reformation was kicked off by a Catholic! They were the days! Being burnt as a heretic maybe about to return. Are we up to it? Of course we are, the Lord will not be dishonoured by His Children.
I started out as a member of a Free Evangelical Church, I then went to a Church of England Church and now I am at a Baptist Church. If your local church is Catholic I'd give it a miss, but the I am not the man Elijah was. HaHa.

The church of Jesus Christ is who ever is a true believer in Christ Jesus.

Of course. No disput there.

I understood Ray to mean the organization which most are corrupt. We see them fall it seems every day.

We do? There is a connection? We maybe spending too much time seeking God's business, we should be minding our own. Our own is to seek the lost not consider anything else is it not?
Our business is to preach Christ and Him crucified not complain about the C[c]hurch.

NU 6:24 " ` "The LORD bless you and keep you; 25 the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; 26 the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace." '27 "So they will put my name on the Israelites, and I will bless them.".

Unless you are Arminium in which case put 'you' in front of Lord.

johnp.

 

[billwald]

>Israel was a type of the Church. It was the type that put Christ to death

Not exactly. Read thru Paul's "real" letters (not Pastorals). Every time he says something nice about his tribes they are "Israel" but when he is bad mouthing them, they are "Judah." (only one exception). Why? Because Abraham has biological and spiritual children. Some of the spiritual children are also a sub set of the biological children.

 

[GeneMBridges]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:


I have gone to a Calvinistic seminary and an evangelical seminary and see the Bible teaching four points of Arminianism and I believe in the security of the true believer, plus dispensationalism. I was saved by the grace of Jesus at age eleven years old.


Berrian, Th.D.

Which seminaries, Ray?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Gene M. Bridges,

Which seminaries, Ray?

Why do you want to know where I have studied? Do you want me to be your personal friend? I am still studying and learning. It doesn't matter to me where men and women have studied; I can tell by their poor answers or statements as to what they understand about God's Word.

Best regards . . .

 

[GeneMBridges]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Gene M. Bridges,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Which seminaries, Ray?

Why do you want to know where I have studied? Do you want me to be your personal friend? I am still studying and learning. It doesn't matter to me where men and women have studied; I can tell by their poor answers or statements as to what they understand about God's Word.

Best regards . . . </font>[/QUOTE]Ray, you're the one that said you have studied at certain seminaries. You put it out there that you are educated at the graduate level. It is even in your signature here. I am asking because I would like to know where you studied, and, yes, I will go back and check your credentials. I have that right, because you put it out there. I would do the same for anybody that presented academic credentials.

I know for a fact you have been asked this several times by others, including a personal friend of mine in the real world. Every time you have refused. Why? What have you to hide?

Honestly, I do not believe you have a Th.D. The content of MUCH of what you say is not Th.D. material, because you make basic errors of content and fact that no Th.D. that I have ever encountered would ever make, that is why I do not think you're credentials are legitimate. If, however, I find that your credentials are legitimate, I will publicly apologize. Otherwise, I must conclude you are not being completely forthright.

 

[johnp.]

Hello billwald.

Israel was a type of the Church. It was the type that put Christ to death

Not exactly. Types are never exactly.
True Israel are the Children of God shadowed by the nation of Israel, no?

johnp.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi John P;
You know I'm sorry you feel the way you do about what I said. If I've offended you forgive me this was not my intention. Actually My comment about Dallas was not meant as an insult. I'm a Born and bred Texan and was merely considering you to be my equal. Oh well you can't please everyone eh!
Mike

 

[johnp.]

No offence was taken ILUVLIGHT. I'm sorry I was joking.
Oh well you can't please everyone eh!
I think we can. We should be less inclined to be adversaries and give the benefit of the doubt. I know it is a difficult medium but we are kin. Brothers. We are called to be friends. I am always telling my son to make friends with his school mates and he does. I should take my own advice.

I'm sure there are the same number of nice Southern Baptists as there are any other sort of Christian.

'I was beginning to think of you as a Southern Baptist from Dallas Texas.'
I have only heard of these folk in derogatory terms on boards. I did take it the wrong way. But I was not offended, just joking.
I said, "Another attack on the Church? Be very wary of general accusations." So I did misunderstand you.

So what are they, Calvinists or all types? I always get the impression they are like the ones who appear on the God Channel.

Peace man!

johnp.

 

[nwells]

johnp:

to quote:
"If he behaves in a way that is not seen to be Christian then appropriate measures must be taken by the Church, but this does not mean he is not a Christian."

What is meant is this:
Because no man can see a man's heart - the only thing we can see his actions.

We are not in a position to say, he is saved and he is not.

But - the one who is saved, because the Spirit of God is at work in his life - WILL endure to the end because all who have become partakers of Christ endure. Why do they endure? Because they are partakers.

Those who do not endure never were partakers.

To make a sentence with the same structure:
We have become doctors IF we have completed our PHD

if we did not complete our PHD it did not make us cease to be doctors - we never were doctors to being with.

Only God knows perfectly who is saved - but we can see some and are able to judge to some extent.

We still sin - and we always will - but those who are in Christ are no longer slaves to sin - but are slaves to righteousness.

Because He lives,
nathan