Reformed Salvation

[AustinC]

Question for you Austin, just to clarify, are you saying that Rom 11:32 only applies to Israel and does not include the Gentiles?

So is that what you are saying, that God has not consigned all to disobedience just all the Jews. If so that would mean there are some Gentiles that were not consigned to disobedience. So if those Gentiles were not consigned to disobedience/sin why do they need a savior?

The context does say that ALL are consigned, Jews & Gentiles and so that God MAY HAVE, not will have, mercy on all. That is not universalism that is just the gospel message.

You were right on one point about Romans, you really should study the whole book as it will clear up a lot of your misunderstandings of scripture and salvation.

I am saying that Israel is everyone who is elect, chosen, children of the Promise (see Romans 9) from all nations, tribes and tongues, not just genetic ancesters of Jacob. Thus, when the last person is given the gift of faith, all Israel will be saved,just as Paul tells us in Romans 11.

Romans 6:23 tells us all have sinned. Everyone who will stand before God, justified by faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ Jesus, needs redemption. Those whom Jesus did not atone for, die in their sins. They have no Savior.

 

[AustinC]

Absolutely. And liking Calvinist theology is not necessary to be a Christian and I hope I never put anything on here to suggest any different.

This is why the title of this thread is so stupid. There is no such thing as Reformed salvation, there is only God's salvation by grace alone.

 

[DaveXR650]

It takes a free will to make real choices and it takes good sense, intelligence or wisdom in order to do so. God expects us to make real choices and holds us responsible for those choices. That in itself points to a free will.

Silverhair, thanks for the thoughtful reply. The only thing I would say is that in my experience with myself and watching others I don't have an optimistic view that any of us, on our own will make good choices enough to be saved. I think what we are calling Calvinism has the most solid rational explanation for how these things work. If you really mean that salvation depends upon your own choices from some wisdom that you possess from within yourself I would just say I strongly disagree. (You may not actually mean that so I'm not accusing.)

 

[Silverhair]

I am saying that Israel is everyone who is elect, chosen, children of the Promise (see Romans 9) from all nations, tribes and tongues, not just genetic ancesters of Jacob. Thus, when the last person is given the gift of faith, all Israel will be saved,just as Paul tells us in Romans 11.

Austin as I have said before I think you have really misunderstood the scriptures. But be that as it may. Question, where do you get this "Gift of Faith" surely not not using Eph 2:8 to support that are you?.

Romans 6:23 tells us all have sinned. Everyone who will stand before God, justified by faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ Jesus, needs redemption. Those whom Jesus did not atone for, die in their sins. They have no Savior.

Your view of the atonement is not biblical and I think you only hold to it so as to support your Calvinist theology. We may agree on some things but we have many that we will not agree on, but you know that.

You say you once held a free will view, quite frankly the fact you would change from that does surprise me. As I have studied the bible one thing I do not find in it is Calvinist theology. If I have to jump all over the bible to find verses that support a view then perhaps I should not be jumping all over the bible to support that view.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair, thanks for the thoughtful reply. The only thing I would say is that in my experience with myself and watching others I don't have an optimistic view that any of us, on our own will make good choices enough to be saved. I think what we are calling Calvinism has the most solid rational explanation for how these things work. If you really mean that salvation depends upon your own choices from some wisdom that you possess from within yourself I would just say I strongly disagree. (You may not actually mean that so I'm not accusing.)

What I am saying is that God has told us that we have no excuse for not knowing there is a God and He has sent the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sins. We also have other Christians that have an impact on our lives. So God is reaching out to us via many different ways. To think that the only way He could save anyone is if He forced them to believe, which is what Calvinism really comes down to, to me shows a great lack of respect for the character of God. While you may see Calvinism as a rational explanation I find it very illogical when you look at the character of God as found in the bible when we look at Christ Jesus and what He told us in
Luk 10:27 So he answered and said, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND,' and 'YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'" Since under Calvinism God only loves some people enough to save them then He is asking us to do something that He does not do. Show love to all people.

 

[AustinC]

Austin as I have said before I think you have really misunderstood the scriptures. But be that as it may. Question, where do you get this "Gift of Faith" surely not not using Eph 2:8 to support that are you?.



Your view of the atonement is not biblical and I think you only hold to it so as to support your Calvinist theology. We may agree on some things but we have many that we will not agree on, but you know that.

You say you once held a free will view, quite frankly the fact you would change from that does surprise me. As I have studied the bible one thing I do not find in it is Calvinist theology. If I have to jump all over the bible to find verses that support a view then perhaps I should not be jumping all over the bible to support that view.

I take from this that you think Jesus authored faith in everyone at conception rather than at salvation.
I also take it that you reject penal substitutionary atonement and have created some other, non-biblical, form of atonement.
Truly you have views that are foreign to the early church.

 

[DaveXR650]

What I am saying is that God has told us that we have no excuse for not knowing there is a God and He has sent the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sins. We also have other Christians that have an impact on our lives. So God is reaching out to us via many different ways. To think that the only way He could save anyone is if He forced them to believe, which is what Calvinism really comes down to, to me shows a great lack of respect for the character of God. While you may see Calvinism as a rational explanation I find it very illogical when you look at the character of God as found in the bible when we look at Christ Jesus and what He told us in
Luk 10:27 So he answered and said, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND,' and 'YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'" Since under Calvinism God only loves some people enough to save them then He is asking us to do something that He does not do. Show love to all people.

Well, that's OK. I don't agree with a lot of what you say and enjoy debating it on a Baptist Debate Forum, but nothing you said above would make me not want to worship with you or be a fellow member of a church. I bet your views above would constitute a majority of most Baptist churches.

 

[Iconoclast]

That sounds like a nice escape hatch there, but if God ordains all things that happen even if He just lets those things happen then that makes Him the one responsible. That is why we see free will in the bible. God knows all things that are going to happen but He does not ordain them, thus He is not responsible for mans actions man is. Calvinists insist that God is sovereign but then say hold on here He can't be so sovereign that He can allow man to have an actual free will. And why do they say that, well if man had an actual freewill then that would mean they could actually choose to follow or reject Christ Jesus and the Calvinist just cannot have that as it would ruin their man made theology.

You are not describing the biblical God,but rather a god of your imagination.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 930 pm EST / 630 pm PST

This thread is closed
feel free to start a new thread