Reformed Speculation VS Jesus Christ

[Reformed1689]

Premillennial fallacy.

Premillennial fallacy?

 

[Yeshua1]

"Well done, Son. Here, you can be king for a day over a world I'm going to burn up."

"Thanks, Dad!"

Think a 1000 years more then a day!

 

[Yeshua1]

That's just speculation.
I will simply trust what God has provided in scripture and by faith believe it applies to all unborn, infants who die and those who are incapable of expressing faith.
If my faith is misplaced, God will make it clear in heaven and I will rest in his goodness.

In the end, hopefully we here can all agree that the Lord will do what is the right thing!

 

[Yeshua1]

Faith is bestowed, yes. It cometh by hearing. The question is, can infants hear?

Yes, but can they believe in what they are hearing?

 

[Yeshua1]

Faith is an effect of saving grace.
The question is: Can God save an infant by grace and grace alone?

if He cannot, can He really be then God, as something too hard for Him to accomplish?

 

[Yeshua1]

We're told what salvation is and how it is obtained. A curse is pronounced on anyone who says it is bestowed by any other means.

So that's not the question.

In anticipation of your next rebuttal I will say, Yes. An infant can hear, because the hearing is not carnal, but spiritual. It is the hearing of faith.

It's not astounding that God can impart the hearing of faith to an infant. It's more astounding that God imparts the hearing of faith to me or you.

So you are taking the Lutheran view that God imparts saving faith to infants, its just they see that as done in infant Baptism?

 

[Yeshua1]

We are told:

...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Read it well because"a curse is bestowed to anyone who says it is bestowed by any other means."

It seems you didn't anticipate that God's word rebukes you.

Grace is what saves us, not our faith!

 

[Yeshua1]

You're the one saying grace through faith except in the case of a certain class of people. Not me.

Is that impossible for God to do then?

 

[AustinC]

You are reading into scripture and forcing your views into it. David going to where his dead son is probably was the grave. Where his body still resides until the resurrection. Unless scripture explicitly makes a claim, we sin by adding to God's word. Do you have direct quotes from scripture to justify your interpretation?

Notice your interpretation of David's comment is speculative. "Probably the grave."
What we know is that David said he would go to be with his son. By faith he believed this.
So I ask: Is David in heaven or hell?

2 Samuel 12:23
But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

There is my direct quote.

Dave, we either live by faith or we don't. We either take David's faith as accurate and applicable to us or we don't.

In this area of unborn, young infants and the mentally disabled, we either hold to hope by faith or we grieve deeply over the eternal damnation of these persons.

Have you had an infant die or had a miscarriage? Do you know the experience of death and disappointment? Can you at all relate to David? Can you acknowledge that this verse is divinely placed to give believers hope for their children, that God may choose to graciously save their babies?

There is much silence in scripture on this issue. But, there is a sliver of revelation through David. I will acknowledge the faith of David and apply it to my own grief. You may reject it. This is your peragative. What we both will know is that God will reveal his good and perfect will regarding these person's when we are brought fully into God's Kingdom upon our own death. Then we will rejoice in the perfect goodness and justice of God who always acts in love.

Peace

 

[Yeshua1]

??? I already have. Go back and read your own quotes where I rebuke you. Please stop being lazy and deceptive.
God saves by his choice alone, by grace alone. Scripture gives evidence of his gracious saving of David's infant child. Unless of course you think David is in hell. Is David in hell today...with his son?

That testifies to grace of God, as an infant formed by union of adultery and murder can die and still get to heaven!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are reading into scripture and forcing your views into it. David going to where his dead son is probably was the grave. Where his body still resides until the resurrection. Unless scripture explicitly makes a claim, we sin by adding to God's word. Do you have direct quotes from scripture to justify your interpretation?

Did David expect to be with His God?

 

[1689Dave]

Notice your interpretation of David's comment is speculative. "Probably the grave."
What we know is that David said he would go to be with his son. By faith he believed this.
So I ask: Is David in heaven or hell?

2 Samuel 12:23
But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

There is my direct quote.

Dave, we either live by faith or we don't. We either take David's faith as accurate and applicable to us or we don't.

In this area of unborn, young infants and the mentally disabled, we either hold to hope by faith or we grieve deeply over the eternal damnation of these persons.

Have you had an infant die or had a miscarriage? Do you know the experience of death and disappointment? Can you at all relate to David? Can you acknowledge that this verse is divinely placed to give believers hope for their children, that God may choose to graciously save their babies?

There is much silence in scripture on this issue. But, there is a sliver of revelation through David. I will acknowledge the faith of David and apply it to my own grief. You may reject it. This is your peragative. What we both will know is that God will reveal his good and perfect will regarding these person's when we are brought fully into God's Kingdom upon our own death. Then we will rejoice in the perfect goodness and justice of God who always acts in love.

Peace

It does not say what you want it to say. Don't add to God's word. Did all of David's family go to heaven based on bloodline? Hardly if you look at the fallout because of David's sin.

 

[AustinC]

Did David expect to be with His God?

Job, by faith, understood we would live with our Redeemer.

Job 19:25-27
For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!

The question is whether God can be the Redeemer of the unborn, the infant and the mentally disabled. I believe God saves by grace alone, apart from any merit on our part.

 

[1689Dave]

Job, by faith, understood we would live with our Redeemer.

Job 19:25-27
For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!

The question is whether God can be the Redeemer of the unborn, the infant and the mentally disabled. I believe God saves by grace alone, apart from any merit on our part.

What we know from God's word is David expected to die and be buried. Which was the case of the dead infant.

 

[Aaron]

You ignore Paul's writing. The first verse emphasizes "saved by grace" and nothing else. The second says saved by grace (this is how God saves) through faith "which is not of yourself" but is the gift of God so that no one can boast.

Therefore, in both verses we see that God does the saving, apart from any need for humans to cooperate.

Aaron, the text is very clear. Please stop attempting to find a loophole of law so that human cooperation is needed before God can save. What you are doing is the same thing Paul warns the Galatian believers against. You are adding law as a requirement for salvation and thus spitting in God's face regarding salvation by grace alone.

I'm not looking for human cooperation. I said from the beginning of our interaction that faith is bestowed. What you are looking for is a way of salvation apart from faith. The hearing of faith doesn't depend on carnal ears or cognitive development. It's a spiritual thing, but I see by your wresting that you think faith is something we possess by nature. A human thing. I don't think you're so zealous for the Gospel here as you are for the hope that there is some other way to enter in, and calling it grace.

 

[Aaron]

Premillennial fallacy?

Yes, Premillennialism is a fallacy.

 

[Aaron]

Think a 1000 years more then a day!

Not with God. With God a 1000 years is as a day. But the point you should have seized upon is that the so-called reward is corruptible and will be burned.

 

[Alan Gross]

Just cannot see God allowing Himself to be boxed into a corner, in which He must wait and see if any will ever decide to get saved by themselves!

Jesus could have Died, been Buried, and Rose Again, for NOTHING, in that scenario where 'God is Helpless'.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, but can they believe in what they are hearing?

Tell me about the souls of these infants. Their souls, not their underdeveloped brains or bodies. Are their souls infantile? Those taken in infancy, do their infant souls depend on heavenly nurseries? Do they suckle at the breasts of angels? Or are their souls like the souls of those adults who are taken?

In the Resurrection, will it be an infant body?

Tell me those things, and I will tell you whether or not they can believe.

So you are taking the Lutheran view that God imparts saving faith to infants, its just they see that as done in infant Baptism?

No. Because I don't see where all infants are elect by virtue of their infancy. But if all infants are, then can you deny them baptism?

You are judging by the outward appearance. You think of faith as an 'adult' thing or a cognitive exercise, and not a spiritual gift. And you are retaining superstitious notions of ghosts in your thinking. You think of one's body as a reflection of one's soul, and thinking that the souls of infants are as infants, and they are not.

Grace is what saves us, not our faith!

Yes it is by grace that God works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. But you're looking for a way into the fold by means other than the Door.

Is that impossible for God to do then?

Nothing is impossible. But not all things are His will.

 

[Yeshua1]

Job, by faith, understood we would live with our Redeemer.

Job 19:25-27
For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!

The question is whether God can be the Redeemer of the unborn, the infant and the mentally disabled. I believe God saves by grace alone, apart from any merit on our part.

is anything too difficult for God to do?