Reformed Theology vs. the Reformed Attitude

[J.D.]

You know, I have to say that up until a couple of weeks ago, I was beginning to develop a real irenic spirit towards brothers of other opinion. But that all came crashing down when as I was listening to a Christian call-in show on the radio on American Family Radio. A caller asked a question of election and here we go with the radio preacher building up strawmen and knocking them down. If that weren't bad enough, that was followed by a series of calls from good hearted people saying stupid things like "I know Calvinism isn't true because God told us to preach the gospel to the world". I was expecting the radio preacher to finally stem the tide and say "wait, that's going to far, that's not what they believe", but instead he just let the stupid stuff flow. Thinking about it now, I don't know why I should have expected anything different, for his own arguments were not much better than their's.

I was furious. For the first time in my life, I tried to call in to a radio show, but couldn't get through anyway. The show closed out without any attempt to obtain or represent another view on the subject. So for thousands of listeners, possibly millions (I don't know how much audience AFR/Wildmon has), the facts had been presented and the heretics vanquished.

So I've reverted back to my "rage stage" or whatever you want to call it.

I really would like to get along with [non-calvinists], but they keep on lying about what I believe.

 

[Skandelon]

If there is an arrogance of young Reformed, it would seem that it is from a discovery about some of the great "big picture" truths of the Scripture that they have learned, often in opposition of their earlier church training. They are eager to go out and transform the church world and often think that the force of their arguments -- often honed in a pure theological realm via papers and scholarly discussion -- will carry the day in a congregation where people are all over the map with doctrines, beliefs, and level of scholarship.

I totally agree. That was my experience when I became a Calvinist at a young age.

But again, this does not mean that the Reformed Doctrines are the problem. Rather, the sin of the individual who is trying to run ahead of God and fix things on his or her own.

I'll concede that point as well. Sin within the people who hold to a particular system doesn't negate the validity of the system. Otherwise, Christianity itself would be proven invalid.

 

[Skandelon]

I really would like to get along with [non-calvinists], but they keep on lying about what I believe.

Believe it or not I really do understand your perspective. It is very frustrating to be misrepresented. I remember how I felt when I was a Calvinist sitting in a pastor's office who kept quoting John 3:16 over and over as if I'd never considered that before. Then when that didn't "console me" he told me a story of a Calvinist he once knew in Seminary who is now selling cars, as if that would discredit all Calvinists and convince me to recant. It was VERY frustrating, to say the least. That was just the beginning of a decade of these types of ignorant interactions.

I wish there had been just ONE intelligent and well meaning non-Calvinist who would have walked through the texts with me and explain their perspective in a clear and non-contraversial manner. I don't know if I would have agreed, but at least I would have known there was another scholarly perspective to consider.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Believe it or not I really do understand your perspective. It is very frustrating to be misrepresented. I remember how I felt when I was a Calvinist sitting in a pastor's office who kept quoting John 3:16 over and over as if I'd never considered that before. Then when that didn't "console me" he told me a story of a Calvinist he once knew in Seminary who is now selling cars, as if that would discredit all Calvinists and convince me to recant. It was VERY frustrating, to say the least. That was just the beginning of a decade of these types of ignorant interactions.

I wish there had been just ONE intelligent and well meaning non-Calvinist who would have walked through the texts with me and explain their perspective in a clear and non-contraversial manner. I don't know if I would have agreed, but at least I would have known there was another scholarly perspective to consider.

And so , out of curiosity.....ahhh never mind. you will find out in 10 years.

 

[J.D.]

Believe it or not I really do understand your perspective. It is very frustrating to be misrepresented. I remember how I felt when I was a Calvinist sitting in a pastor's office who kept quoting John 3:16 over and over as if I'd never considered that before. Then when that didn't "console me" he told me a story of a Calvinist he once knew in Seminary who is now selling cars, as if that would discredit all Calvinists and convince me to recant. It was VERY frustrating, to say the least. That was just the beginning of a decade of these types of ignorant interactions.

I wish there had been just ONE intelligent and well meaning non-Calvinist who would have walked through the texts with me and explain their perspective in a clear and non-contraversial manner. I don't know if I would have agreed, but at least I would have known there was another scholarly perspective to consider.

Thank you for that empathy.

 

[Iconoclast]

You know, I have to say that up until a couple of weeks ago, I was beginning to develop a real irenic spirit towards brothers of other opinion. But that all came crashing down when as I was listening to a Christian call-in show on the radio on American Family Radio. A caller asked a question of election and here we go with the radio preacher building up strawmen and knocking them down. If that weren't bad enough, that was followed by a series of calls from good hearted people saying stupid things like "I know Calvinism isn't true because God told us to preach the gospel to the world". I was expecting the radio preacher to finally stem the tide and say "wait, that's going to far, that's not what they believe", but instead he just let the stupid stuff flow. Thinking about it now, I don't know why I should have expected anything different, for his own arguments were not much better than their's.

I was furious. For the first time in my life, I tried to call in to a radio show, but couldn't get through anyway. The show closed out without any attempt to obtain or represent another view on the subject. So for thousands of listeners, possibly millions (I don't know how much audience AFR/Wildmon has), the facts had been presented and the heretics vanquished.

So I've reverted back to my "rage stage" or whatever you want to call it.

I really would like to get along with [non-calvinists], but they keep on lying about what I believe.

J.D.
This is the exact tension and conflict that we have to consider,in all areas of theology. I have also listened to this error driven and ignorant kind of shallowness.
It is one thing if the people would not agree, but to not really engage the issues is sinful. It shows a lack of reverence for the word of God.and it could actually be unbelief masked as religion and "tolerance" in an ungodly sense.
Some who do this betray a lack of sobermindedness that is shocking.
we are instucted to be patient in 2tim2:24-26

23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

The only way we can do this is by God's grace and meditating upon what we believe.....that unless God allows someone to see the truth...they cannot
Why we get frustrated is we look at a person who otherwise seems both nice and intelligent....make very poor choices about how to come to truth,trying in the strength of the flesh, but they believe almost anything but the scriptural truth. Then they accuse ,saying all of the things we hear....you are arrogant, rude , excetera.
If you got through on the radio...they would have muted your comments, or deflected what verses you offered. we do not know who the elect are, but we know God would have us to remain faithful so that even religious sinners can be saved.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

J.D.
This is the exact tension and conflict that we have to consider,in all areas of theology. I have also listened to this error driven and ignorant kind of shallowness.
It is one thing if the people would not agree, but to not really engage the issues is sinful. It shows a lack of reverence for the word of God.and it could actually be unbelief masked as religion and "tolerance" in an ungodly sense.
Some who do this betray a lack of sobermindedness that is shocking.
we are instucted to be patient in 2tim2:24-26


The only way we can do this is by God's grace and meditating upon what we believe.....that unless God allows someone to see the truth...they cannot
Why we get frustrated is we look at a person who otherwise seems both nice and intelligent....make very poor choices about how to come to truth,trying in the strength of the flesh, but they believe almost anything but the scriptural truth. Then they accuse ,saying all of the things we hear....you are arrogant, rude , excetera.
If you got through on the radio...they would have muted your comments, or deflected what verses you offered. we do not know who the elect are, but we know God would have us to remain faithful so that even religious sinners can be saved.

Hear Hear ....:applause:

 

[Skandelon]

.....that unless God allows someone to see the truth...they cannot

Why do you suppose God doesn't allow some of his elect children see the truth, while others he does?

 

[Iconoclast]

Why do you suppose God doesn't allow some of his elect children see the truth, while others he does?

Skan
good question;

1] It might not be the right time

2] They are given what they need,

3] some might lack the capacity to process it correctly

4]some might be too proud in spirit. God resists the proud

5] some have not prayed for truth, in other words....some have not asked in faith that they will hear Jesus through His word...My sheep hear my voice...

6] some who profess to be the people of God.....are not...they like those in Jn 8,10, 12, missed Jesus when he came, yet they professed to be His people

7] others might emotionally resist the truth ,depriving themselves of much comfort that is available.

8]18For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Salvation happens in real time....so does apostasy.and heresy.
I believe all of God's elect will welcome this truth...with different levels of understanding, different levels of maturity.

These truths were written in letters where children were also addressed , so it is not like all christians are not to be knowledgeable of the truths of grace.

9] some true christians might only come to learn a certain amount of truth,
the thief on the cross...[the saved one] knew only what he needed to know about salvation.....he missed out on seminary training, nevertheless Jesus saved him.
10] some christians are lazy and ignorant of much of the bible.....willful ignorance......couch potatoes, beguiled by the world, pick and choose types,
A professed christian...cannot remain in this kind of pathetic existence for a long period of time. There are no backsliders or carnal christians. this kind of sinful disobedience has to be repented of ...God does not have any undisciplined children.

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

We each give account of ourselves to God.
Like I say...God is the judge of the heart......but anyone who is not giving dilegence to make his calling and election sure.....is in trouble

 

[preacher4truth]

Skan
good question;

1] It might not be the right time

2] They are given what they need,

3] some might lack the capacity to process it correctly

4]some might be too proud in spirit. God resists the proud

5] some have not prayed for truth, in other words....some have not asked in faith that they will hear Jesus through His word...My sheep hear my voice...

6] some who profess to be the people of God.....are not...they like those in Jn 8,10, 12, missed Jesus when he came, yet they professed to be His people

7] others might emotionally resist the truth ,depriving themselves of much comfort that is available.

8]18For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Salvation happens in real time....so does apostasy.and heresy.
I believe all of God's elect will welcome this truth...with different levels of understanding, different levels of maturity.

These truths were written in letters where children were also addressed , so it is not like all christians are not to be knowledgeable of the truths of grace.

9] some true christians might only come to learn a certain amount of truth,
the thief on the cross...[the saved one] knew only what he needed to know about salvation.....he missed out on seminary training, nevertheless Jesus saved him.
10] some christians are lazy and ignorant of much of the bible.....willful ignorance......couch potatoes, beguiled by the world, pick and choose types,
A professed christian...cannot remain in this kind of pathetic existence for a long period of time. There are no backsliders or carnal christians. this kind of sinful disobedience has to be repented of ...God does not have any undisciplined children.

We each give account of ourselves to God.
Like I say...God is the judge of the heart......but anyone who is not giving dilegence to make his calling and election sure.....is in trouble

Yes, good question.


We only are free in Christ. Not before. "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32 and following. We see this is contrary and opposite to bondage of sin. So the first step is salvation.

After salvation? Some don't know things due to slothfulness, i.e. it is their own personal fault. At times, God reveals to us things by His Spirit for immediate use, as C.H. Spurgeon relays seeing the word "girl" only one time in the Scriptures, and confronted by an atheist, whom he had witnessed to on occasion, who asked how many times it appeared in Scriptures, Spurgeon was able to answer that it only appeared once (KJV), and was lended a listening ear, and this man repented and became born-again. God had spoken to Spurgeon about this word, and caused him to ponder for a reason.

Some of us give ourselves to God in diligence, and to those, He reveals both His will and Word by His Spirit, but only to those who are sensitive to Him. Sadly, not many will do this. He doesn't yield His truth to the slothful, but we know that He reveals Himself to the diligent:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6

- Blessings

 

[JesusFan]

Why do you suppose God doesn't allow some of his elect children see the truth, while others he does?

There is that moment where the providence of God interacts with those whom he jas chosen to be found in Christ...

At that time, the Gospel message make perfexct sense to them, and they exercise saving faith in Christ...

Its part of the mystery of God being full soverneign and yet allows for us to have 'free will!"

 

[Tom Butler]

I've been thinking during this discussion.

I think what some might think is arrogance is more zeal than anything else.

The fact that I think what I believe about Calvinism is right, and thus non-Cals are wrong, doesn't make me arrogant. Non-Cals think I'm wrong, but that doesn't make them arrogant.

Now, if I think webdog, let's say, or Skandelon is wrong because he's too stupid to understand it, and I understand it because I'm intelligent, then that would be arrogance.

And whether a Calvinist is arrogant or not has nothing to do with the validity of what he believes.

So let's cool it with perjoratives.

 

[Aaron]

Why do you suppose God doesn't allow some of his elect children see the truth, while others he does?

Why? Why? Why?

Why will God have mercy on some, and not on others?

Why was Elisha sent only to the widow in Zarephath?

Why was Christ's most intimate moments reserved for Peter James and John?

Why favor Paul with the abundance of divine revelations?

In stark constrast, consider the primary question of the Calvinist: What? Where the Noncalvinist wants to know why God has done certain things, the Calvinist is satisfied in knowing what God has done.

God knows how to answer. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy. If I will that this man does such, what is that to thee?

It is a tremendous lesson in humility.

 

[preacher4truth]

Why? Why? Why?

Why will God have mercy on some, and not on others?

Why was Elisha sent only to the widow in Zarephath?

Why was Christ's most intimate moments reserved for Peter James and John?

Why favor Paul with the abundance of divine revelations?

In stark constrast, consider the primary question of the Calvinist: What? Where the Noncalvinist wants to know why God has done certain things, the Calvinist is satisfied in knowing what God has done.

God knows how to answer. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy. If I will that this man does such, what is that to thee?

Brother, that is awesome. Thanks for that! :thumbsup:

 

[Amy.G]

Why? Why? Why?

Yes, "why? why? why?" didn't you answer Skan's question?


And "why?" did God choose you and not the other guy?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, "why? why? why?" didn't you answer Skan's question?


And "why?" did God choose you and not the other guy?

Gods ways are a mystery & would you have preferred Luke...LOL:tonofbricks:

 

[Iconoclast]

JF

Its part of the mystery of God being full soverneign and yet allows for us to have 'free will!"

there is no mystery....there is no free will....only self will bound by a sinful nature.

 

[Skandelon]

Why? Why? Why?

Why will God have mercy on some, and not on others?

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

Why was Elisha sent only to the widow in Zarephath?

Because she was chosen for that noble purpose.

Why was Christ's most intimate moments reserved for Peter James and John?

Because they were chosen for that noble purpose.

Why favor Paul with the abundance of divine revelations?

Because he was chosen for that noble purpose.

In stark constrast, consider the primary question of the Calvinist: What? Where the Noncalvinist wants to know why God has done certain things, the Calvinist is satisfied in knowing what God has done.

This non-Calvinist wants to know the intent of the biblical authors, so I study the historical context and strive to understand the specifics of the subject being addressed and the circumstances its being addressed within.

 

[J.D.]

J.D.
This is the exact tension and conflict that we have to consider,in all areas of theology. I have also listened to this error driven and ignorant kind of shallowness.
It is one thing if the people would not agree, but to not really engage the issues is sinful. It shows a lack of reverence for the word of God.and it could actually be unbelief masked as religion and "tolerance" in an ungodly sense.
Some who do this betray a lack of sobermindedness that is shocking.
we are instucted to be patient in 2tim2:24-26


The only way we can do this is by God's grace and meditating upon what we believe.....that unless God allows someone to see the truth...they cannot
Why we get frustrated is we look at a person who otherwise seems both nice and intelligent....make very poor choices about how to come to truth,trying in the strength of the flesh, but they believe almost anything but the scriptural truth. Then they accuse ,saying all of the things we hear....you are arrogant, rude , excetera.
If you got through on the radio...they would have muted your comments, or deflected what verses you offered. we do not know who the elect are, but we know God would have us to remain faithful so that even religious sinners can be saved.

You know, you mentioned shallowness, and that gets me to thinking about what pushes my buttons. It's not shallowness from the average pew-sitter that really sets me off, although ideally any Christian has a depth to their understanding of these things; but it's the shallowness of preachers, pastors, proffessors, etc. There's no excuse in my mind for the way church leaders treat the great doctrines of Faith, no matter which side of them they may happen to fall. (you may recall my recent ranting at an article by Elmer Townes, the ex-presbyterian that misrepresents the presbyterian system).

 

[webdog]

You know, you mentioned shallowness, and that gets me to thinking about what pushes my buttons. It's not shallowness from the average pew-sitter that really sets me off, although ideally any Christian has a depth to their understanding of these things; but it's the shallowness of preachers, pastors, proffessors, etc. There's no excuse in my mind for the way church leaders treat the great doctrines of Faith, no matter which side of them they may happen to fall. (you may recall my recent ranting at an article by Elmer Townes, the ex-presbyterian that misrepresents the presbyterian system).

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.