Reformers' interpretations of the AntiChrist

[MarysSon]

Let us look at Hebrews 10 so that it becomes obvious to all that Jesus paid once and for all the elect.

Hebrews 10:1-39 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’” When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.

Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. For, “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay; but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

In Hebrews 10 we see the writer telling his readers that if they return to the law and works, they will have turned their back on God's saving grace. They would have no hope of salvation via works. Their self-righteousness would not save them. Only faith in the gracious work of Christ would save them.

So, @MarysSon, your passage in Hebrews 10 actually condemns your teaching that unconfessed sin will condemn the Christian to hell because, as you claim, Christ only died for past sins, not present or future sins.
Hebrews 10 proves your belief to be entirely wrong.

Shall we go to you next prooftext so you can see your error or is this enough to change your mind?

Wrong.

First of all - what you posted PROVES my point that we CAN walk away from God's grace - even though YOU have claimed that we can't. By your own admission above in RED, you are saying that we can walk away and return to a life of works - which, by the way is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches.

The Church doesn't teach that we are saved by faith AND works - nut that works are an essential component of faith, as I have shown you from Scripture (James 2:14-26, Gal. 5:6, Matt. 7:21, Matt. 25:31-46).

And, by the way - you never addressed "Epignosis" as is is mentioned in Heb 10.
This was a warning to those who ALREADY HAVE an epignosis of Christ.

 

[MarysSon]

Let us look at Hebrews 10 so that it becomes obvious to all that Jesus paid once and for all the elect.

Hebrews 10:1-39 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’” When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.

Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. For, “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay; but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

In Hebrews 10 we see the writer telling his readers that if they return to the law and works, they will have turned their back on God's saving grace. They would have no hope of salvation via works. Their self-righteousness would not save them. Only faith in the gracious work of Christ would save them.

So, @MarysSon, your passage in Hebrews 10 actually condemns your teaching that unconfessed sin will condemn the Christian to hell because, as you claim, Christ only died for past sins, not present or future sins.
Hebrews 10 proves your belief to be entirely wrong.

Shall we go to you next prooftext so you can see your error or is this enough to change your mind?

WRONG again.

This chapter starts out talking about false prophets and warns the FAITHFUL not to fall into their trap. The word "Epignosis" tells us this much because it means that they have a FULL, experiential and relational knowledge of Christ.

This is about being seduced away from the truth - and it happens EVERY day. Nobody "snatches" them from God's hand - they walk away on their own.

Until you can address "Epignosis" - you have LOST this argument . . .

 

[AustinC]

Wrong.

First of all - what you posted PROVES my point that we CAN walk away from God's grace - even though YOU have claimed that we can't. By your own admission above in RED, you are saying that we can walk away and return to a life of works - which, by the way is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches.

The Church doesn't teach that we are saved by faith AND works - nut that works are an essential component of faith, as I have shown you from Scripture (James 2:14-26, Gal. 5:6, Matt. 7:21, Matt. 25:31-46).

And, by the way - you never addressed "Epignosis" as is is mentioned in Heb 10.
This was a warning to those who ALREADY HAVE an epignosis of Christ.

The whole passage stands against you despite your balking. You are free to walk in fear instead of faith. I will trust what God says and know that he has promised to be with me always even to the end. I accept his promises as true.

 

[MarysSon]

The whole passage stands against you despite your balking. You are free to walk in fear instead of faith. I will trust what God says and know that he has promised to be with me always even to the end. I accept his promises as true.

That's the entire point of Scripture:
God is ALWAYS faithful - Man is NOT. I also see that you couldn't address the "Epignosis" in those passages . . .

God allows US to choose Him. If He coerced our every action and emotion - we would be nothing but automatons - robots.
God didn't create robots who have no choice. He create humans who either desire to love Him of not.

The god you've created is a monster - who drags people kicking and screaming into Heaven whether they like it or not.
The God of Scripture allows US to make the choice . . .

 

[AustinC]

That's the entire point of Scripture:
God is ALWAYS faithful - Man is NOT. I also see that you couldn't address the "Epignosis" in those passages . . .

God allows US to choose Him. If He coerced our every action and emotion - we would be nothing but automatons - robots.
God didn't create robots who have no choice. He create humans who either desire to love Him of not.

The god you've created is a monster - who drags people kicking and screaming into Heaven whether they like it or not.
The God of Scripture allows US to make the choice . . .

God chooses us. We would never willingly choose God...ever. You place all the emphasis on man and thus take away from God his rightful place as Sovereign King who rules over all.
Romans 3 proves you to be wrong in your claim.

Romans 3:3-14,16-31 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just. What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

 

[MarysSon]

God chooses us. We would never willingly choose God...ever. You place all the emphasis on man and thus take away from God his rightful place as Sovereign King who rules over all.
Romans 3 proves you to be wrong in your claim.

Romans 3:3-14,16-31 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just. What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

God gives everybody the grace to be saved - EVERYBODY - and wills that ALL people be saved (John 3:16, 2 Tim 2:3-4).
Some choose to accept it - and most reject it. God knows from the beginning who will accept or reject him. He doesn't coerce or control it. That is how God "chooses" us.

YOU are no more special than the person who rejected Him. What makes you different is whether or not you choose to cooperate with His grace. This is why Paul refers to us as "sunergos" (co-workers) with God (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1).
The Calvinist belief in "Irresistible Grace" is an abomination which renders God as nothing but a Cosmic Rapist who forces His love on those He "Selects" - and they have NO choice in the matter.
That's NOT love - that's RAPE.

the God of Judaism and Christianity - the God of the Bible gives us a FREE WILL to love Him or reject Him.
That's the only REAL love.

 

[AustinC]

God gives everybody the grace to be saved - EVERYBODY - and wills that ALL people be saved (John 3:16, 2 Tim 2:3-4).
Some choose to accept it - and most reject it. God knows from the beginning who will accept or reject him. He doesn't coerce or control it. That is how God "chooses" us.

YOU are no more special than the person who rejected Him. What makes you different is whether or not you choose to cooperate with His grace. This is why Paul refers to us as "sunergos" (co-workers) with God (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1).
The Calvinist belief in "Irresistible Grace" is an abomination which renders God as nothing but a Cosmic Rapist who forces His love on those He "Selects" - and they have NO choice in the matter.
That's NOT love - that's RAPE.

the God of Judaism and Christianity - the God of the Bible gives us a FREE WILL to love Him or reject Him.
That's the only REAL love.

Sigh, you continue to completely misunderstand God's word. Instead, you insist on human control and humans saving themselves by their own rational thinking. Yet, the Bible teaches the opposite as Romans 3 very clearly tells you.
Also, look at Romans 8 and 9. Then read Ephesians 1 and 2.

Romans 8:27-34 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Romans 9:8-24 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

MarysSon, you are closing your eyes to what God is telling you and then you assert a false means of salvation by your works, not by God's.

 

[AustinC]

@MarysSon please read what God tells you rather than prooftext what you insist upon.

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:1-22 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

We ARE fellow citizens. Yet, you insist on claiming we are only potentially citizens. Shame on you for not believing what God tells you.

 

[utilyan]

Now for 2 Peter 2.


2 Peter 2:1-22 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness. These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

So, @MarysSon, we see that Peter is talking about the false prophets that are in the church. We see that they are the ones teaching salvation by works (the very teaching of your church by the way) and they are destined for destruction.

This very passage condemns your teaching and proves that you are speaking as a false prophet because your church is speaking as a false prophet.
I urge you to repent and flee the false teaching you have embraced.

Do I need to continue to show the error of your prooftexting?

[/B]

We got whole epistle telling us what deceivers do. Avoiding what Jesus ACTUALLY taught.

2 John 1

1The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, 2for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: 3Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

4I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father. 5Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

12Though I have many things to write to you, I do not want to do so with paper and ink; but I hope to come to you and speak face to face, so that your joy may be made full.

13The children of your chosen sister greet you.


The GOOD WORK LOVE GOD and LOVE NEIGHBOR.

"Saved by faith alone" --THINGS Jesus Christ NEVER TEACHES.


Scripture plainly teaches. The ONLY place the phrase "FAITH ALONE" shows up.

James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



See the difference between us is We don't have to vilify, misrepresent, or put words in your mouth, to let you know you are wrong.

You however HAVE TO misrepresent our teachings in ways we never agree to believe.

We don't have to lie about what you believe, we can say it have you agree and sign off on it and still tell you that you are wrong.

You get upset because you can't find any teaching explicitly or implicitly implying false teachings like Sola Scriptura.

 

[AustinC]

We got whole epistle telling us what deceivers do. Avoiding what Jesus ACTUALLY taught.

2 John 1

1The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, 2for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: 3Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

4I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father. 5Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

12Though I have many things to write to you, I do not want to do so with paper and ink; but I hope to come to you and speak face to face, so that your joy may be made full.

13The children of your chosen sister greet you.


The GOOD WORK LOVE GOD and LOVE NEIGHBOR.

"Saved by faith alone" --THINGS Jesus Christ NEVER TEACHES.


Scripture plainly teaches. The ONLY place the phrase "FAITH ALONE" shows up.

James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



See the difference between us is We don't have to vilify, misrepresent, or put words in your mouth, to let you know you are wrong.

You however HAVE TO misrepresent our teachings in ways we never agree to believe.

We don't have to lie about what you believe, we can say it have you agree and sign off on it and still tell you that you are wrong.

You get upset because you can't find any teaching explicitly or implicitly implying false teachings like Sola Scriptura.

Where does John or James declare that only the past sins have been forgiven and we must work to receive God's forgiveness all the time or we will die in sins and be sent to purgatory?
I certainly don't see it in any of the verses you posted.
Second, you have been repeatedly shown the error of your position in James, yet you bring it back as though continually showing us your error will someday make it no longer an error.

 

[MarysSon]

Sigh, you continue to completely misunderstand God's word. Instead, you insist on human control and humans saving themselves by their own rational thinking. Yet, the Bible teaches the opposite as Romans 3 very clearly tells you.
Also, look at Romans 8 and 9. Then read Ephesians 1 and 2.

Romans 8:27-34 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Romans 9:8-24 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

MarysSon, you are closing your eyes to what God is telling you and then you assert a false means of salvation by your works, not by God's.

Your misunderstanding of these verses comes from the SAME perversions of John Calvin.
He simply didn't understand that God is OUTSIDE of time.

We are told in 2 Pet. 3:8 that, ". . . with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

This means that God is at every point in human history SIMULTANEOUSLY. This is described as "foreknowledge" in Scripture - but it has more to do with His omnipresence.
He knows ALL because He is present at ALL points in history at the same time. He knows every choice that every one of us will ever make before we make it. What He DOESN'T do is coerce us to make those choices.

God doesn't send anybody kicking and screaming into Hell against their will - NOR does He drag anybody kicking and screaming into Heaven against their will. John Calvin invented a false god in the 16th century that DID these things and YOU unfortunately fell for it. I have given you Scriptural examples of free will but you refuse to accept them. the most glaring one being Christ's lament over Jerusalem:

Matt. 23:23
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and YOU were not willing!

Finally, I see that you have once again steered CLEAR of the whole "Epignosis" issue in the verses I presented.
It's obvious as to WHY you ignored this . . .

 

[utilyan]

Where does John or James declare that only the past sins have been forgiven and we must work to receive God's forgiveness all the time or we will die in sins and be sent to purgatory?
I certainly don't see it in any of the verses you posted.
Second, you have been repeatedly shown the error of your position in James, yet you bring it back as though continually showing us your error will someday make it no longer an error.

"Where does John or James declare that only the past sins have been forgiven and we must work to receive God's forgiveness all the time or we will die in sins and be sent to purgatory?"

Who said purgatory is place? why do you HAVE TO fabricate false teachings about what we believe?


John 20

22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

But JEsus you already forgave everything I'm going to do later.


"Second, you have been repeatedly shown the error of your position in James, yet you bring it back as though continually showing us your error will someday make it no longer an error."

What error is that?

This error --> 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

This error --> 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

This error -->20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Have you ever met this FOOLISH FELLOW? I bet you haven't. This guy who thinks faith without works is USEFUL. I speak to him over the internet everyday.

Your explanations for James 2 never go past "your wrong about it"

What happened to going through the bible verse by verse?" Sounds like here comes the philosophical horse crap.

 

[Hobie]

The whole passage stands against you despite your balking. You are free to walk in fear instead of faith. I will trust what God says and know that he has promised to be with me always even to the end. I accept his promises as true.

I would agree...

 

[Adonia]

God gives everybody the grace to be saved - EVERYBODY - and wills that ALL people be saved (John 3:16, 2 Tim 2:3-4).
Some choose to accept it - and most reject it.

As the one thief on the cross next to Jesus did. If predestination were true what happened to him? Why did God not want that fellow yet somehow "chose" the other. If one reads the "thieves on the cross" passage, we see it is one thief who chooses Jesus out of his own free will, the other rejects him out of the same free will that all men possess.

Luke 23:39-43 says: 39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

This passage clearly shows that the thief who is saved speaks first to Jesus, he goes to the Lord, he CHOOSES the Lord - Jesus merely responds with the words of salvation.

 

[MarysSon]

As the one thief on the cross next to Jesus did. If predestination were true what happened to him? Why did God not want that fellow yet somehow "chose" the other. If one reads the "thieves on the cross" passage, we see it is one thief who chooses Jesus out of his own free will, the other rejects him out of the same free will that all men possess.

Luke 23:39-43 says: 39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

This passage clearly shows that the thief who is saved speaks first to Jesus, he goes to the Lord, he CHOOSES the Lord - Jesus merely responds with the words of salvation.

Amen.

 

[AustinC]

"Where does John or James declare that only the past sins have been forgiven and we must work to receive God's forgiveness all the time or we will die in sins and be sent to purgatory?"

Who said purgatory is place? why do you HAVE TO fabricate false teachings about what we believe?


John 20

22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

But JEsus you already forgave everything I'm going to do later.


"Second, you have been repeatedly shown the error of your position in James, yet you bring it back as though continually showing us your error will someday make it no longer an error."

What error is that?

This error --> 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

This error --> 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

This error -->20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Have you ever met this FOOLISH FELLOW? I bet you haven't. This guy who thinks faith without works is USEFUL. I speak to him over the internet everyday.

Your explanations for James 2 never go past "your wrong about it"

What happened to going through the bible verse by verse?" Sounds like here comes the philosophical horse crap.

Misusing scripture again and then claiming it says something it doesn't. You are impressive.

 

[AustinC]

As the one thief on the cross next to Jesus did. If predestination were true what happened to him? Why did God not want that fellow yet somehow "chose" the other. If one reads the "thieves on the cross" passage, we see it is one thief who chooses Jesus out of his own free will, the other rejects him out of the same free will that all men possess.

Luke 23:39-43 says: 39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

This passage clearly shows that the thief who is saved speaks first to Jesus, he goes to the Lord, he CHOOSES the Lord - Jesus merely responds with the words of salvation.

Not one thing you declare is actually stated in that passage. You have forced your presupposition into the passage and asserted that your presupposition must be true.

Observation of the passage shows you are entirely incorrect.

 

[utilyan]

Misusing scripture again and then claiming it says something it doesn't. You are impressive.

You want scripture for something we don't believe.


James 2

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Only an idiot would conclude the exact opposite.

24You see that a man is justified by faith alone and not by works.

 

[AustinC]

You want scripture for something we don't believe.


James 2

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Only an idiot would conclude the exact opposite.

24You see that a man is justified by faith alone and not by works.

You have completely misunderstood James. Scripture interprets scripture. This means Paul and James are both in agreement.
God gifts his children faith and faith works. Faith works to do the good works God has ordained us to do.

Utilyan, it is all about God and what he is doing. When we start lifting our selves up as the instigators of faith, we dishonor God.

 

[utilyan]

You have completely misunderstood James. Scripture interprets scripture. This means Paul and James are both in agreement.
God gifts his children faith and faith works. Faith works to do the good works God has ordained us to do.

Utilyan, it is all about God and what he is doing. When we start lifting our selves up as the instigators of faith, we dishonor God.

You are not explaining it AT ALL. You are giving the same TRADITIONAL PHILOSOPHY. No one reading the bible on their own is going to believe your mess unless someone is over the shoulder to teach it. That is why it never existed for 1500 years.

Look closely at your responses. YOU GIVE NO SCRIPTURE stating anything REMOTELY to FAITH ALONE.

I have PAUL and JAMES Saying faith without GOOD works is FALSE.

1 Corinthians 13

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.


Can a Flawed faith save you?

James 2
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;


2 Peter 1
5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

Again the top dog is LOVE.

The number one problem we have with "FAITH ALONE" It is DEVOID of LOVE. LOVE is a GOOD WORK, LOVE is THE GOOD WORK. Without it you have Trash and it is Evil.

Look closely at your responses. YOU GIVE NO SCRIPTURE stating anything REMOTELY to FAITH ALONE.
Look closely at your responses. YOU GIVE NO SCRIPTURE stating anything REMOTELY to FAITH ALONE.

Not one bible verse saying "guys all you need is faith alone"

You must think God is a MORON to not put across personally in his entire ministry an idea so stupid even I can teach it with one line. I can write down that stupid teaching in one line. and the 40,000 bible verses missed the most important point. How stupid do you think God is?

Yet out of the mouth of Jesus Christ HE STATES MY POINT CLEARLY--->Love one another, Love God, Love neighbor. and it was clear for a good 1500 years till the DUMBEST catholic showed up.

Jesus never said "you are saved by faith alone" because being God he didn't teach stupid things.