Regarding Drinking -----

I was battling with this question for quite a while since the recent study came out that red wine lowers the LDL and raises the HDL cholesterol levels.

We have heart attacks and high cholesterol all through the family and it seems each generation is worse than others.

Then I found this web page.

My co-pastor claims that alcoholism isn't genetic. As much as I love my church, I have to disagree until I learn otherwise.

Yes, we can decide not to take the first drink...my husband made that decision, and if he HAD decided to drink, he'd be an alcoholic today.

His father, bless his heart, doesn't drink (I've never seen him drink) but he used to and when he did, he never knew when to say "no". He calls himself a recovering alcoholic. I found this out when I was talking to him last yer and brought up the discussion about red wine for the heart. Praise the Lord he uncovered this fact to me because all it would have taken for my husband was a drink.

I only drank twice when I was little. I remember my hands resting on a huge arm of a chair--that was above chin-level for me-- and watching this man in the chair drink something out of a can. I later found out it was my uncle. I recall him turning to me and asking if I wanted to taste it. I remember nodding, but women around me said, "no! Don't give her any!" I thought they said that because somehow I was bad and didn't deserve it. He chuckled and handed me the can. I took a sip and it tasted aweful. He laughed and took the can back. I didn't know at the time why he laughed.

I remember my father doing the same thing when I was 17, but this time it was in a glass and I didn't know what it was. Again, I drank it and this itme it burned all the way down my throat. My father laughed (which surprised me since he was very overprotective of me).

I've seen my parents drink twice in my life (each was on New Years Eve) and the remaining of the contents of the bottle-which was almost full-stayed in the refrigerator for months until my mother poured it out. I don't believe I'd be an alcoholic if I drank, but why take the chance?

Why drink at all? Forget the Christian thing. If we think it's ok to take a drink, why are we drinking? Is it to relieve stress? Is it peer pressure (at work or at a wedding...don't want to lose a job or feel left out...or hurt someone's feelings..or disclose the fact we are Christians)?
Is it because nothing else is cold in the refrigerator? I'm just wondering why drinking is an important issue. I'm asking a question..not trying to make a point.

It's only by the Grace of God that alcoholism is not in my family and my husband has never taken a drink. This isn't an "I'm better than you" post. In fact, my heart goes out to those who are struggling with alcoholism. My Father-in-Law told me that not a day goes by that he doesn't think about drinking...especially on a hot day. I'm sure beer commercials don't help. But I wouldn't have guessed he was a recovering alcoholic because I've never seen him drink. Instead of putting down alcoholics, we should be praying for them. We may be instrumental in sparing lives of an innocent family traveling to Grandmas one day.

Thank you, TexasSky for explaining the "recovering alcoholic" and why they hold on to the title when they don't drink. My husband and I just had this conversation yesterday and I thought "recovering alcoholic" was just a title to blame a sudden slip-up back to the bottle (like they refuse to accept that God can heal them completely from this "I'm an alcoholic...I can't help myself"). But it makes sense that it's a reminder NOT to take a drink.

I suppose we can call ourselves "recovering sinners"?

The reason I believe in the genetics is because our bodies react to different medicines differently. For instance, a stimulant normally makes people more active...yet it makes hyperactive people tired..calms them down.

Not that I'm hyper, but coffee normally keeps people awake. It makes me tired...as well as Tylenol and Advil (even though doctors keep telling me it shouldn't make me tired).

Carry this over into alcohol, and some people will drink themselves to death if they could (and some will eat and eat). Is it because the normal "side effects" of alcohol (headache, nausea, dizziness) is not present with genetic alcoholics? Is it because alcoholics get a big high that their brain remembers and craves more than one who occasionally drinks? I've never had enough to react either way, so I don't know. Again, I'm asking a question, not trying to make a point.

HOWEVER, I am a strong believer that unless we keep Lord in our lives and turn to Him for our decisions, we are constantly weighing penalty with reward. From sitting down in a specific chair to making decisions such as marriage and career. If the reward outweighs the penalty, we're going to opt for the rewarded decision...unless we are constantly close to the Lord. If so, then we will opt for what the Lord wants from us regardless of the outcome. So, for some reason, alcohol is a reward to alcoholics and the "side effects" are too high a penalty to those who seldom drink.

For me, I have no rewards for drinking since I didn't like it when offered to me. My satisfied curiosity is not reward enough for me to begin. Now that I know my husband (and kids) could be alcoholics, I have an added benefit of keeping alcohol out of the house.

[ June 23, 2005, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Victory in Jesus ]

 

VIJ, there are too many conflicting "reports" and "opinions" from doctors on this subject. Many say it is healthy to have 8 oz a day...many say it's not. Guess it just comes down to conviction, possible addictive behaviours in the person, and opinions.

 

King James,

I was simply commenting on BillyMac's statement in the quote.

I don't enter into the dicussions on the BB either pro or con on drinking because it is a horse that has been beaten to death here time and time again.

Most of the threads on drinking degenerate into a few people on both sides saying "I'm right and your wrong". Nothing gets accomplished.

Bill

 

By the time I was 21 I was drinking at least 6 to a 12 pack a day. I was doing coke every weekend. I smoked cigerettes and pot all the time. I was a high school drop out. I had two DWI's . I met Jesus in the middle of a 30 day jail stint for drinking related incidents. BTW, I grew up a christian, SBC, going to church, everytime the doors were open home.
The day I got saved God delivered me from the booze, dope, everything. Right then. I havent' had a drink or a smoke for 17 years now.

Now I don't believe it happens the same for everybody. Some people struggle with their vices for a while after they are saved. Over time if they are discipled properly. Study the Word they can be delivered completely.

I personally believe we label to many things today as addictions instead of sin. I.e..sex addicts, drug addicts, video game addicts and on and on. We should never undercut the miraculous power of a mighty God. I'm not against programs for recovery.
However; I wonder about the christianizing of 12 step programs? Let us never minimize God's recovery program. Which is a one step program called regeneration.

I know we could debate all day long about the drinking issue. I'll just put my 2cts. in.
Nobody will ever convince me that Jesus made wine at the wedding that had the potential to make people drunk. If He did then Christ would have sinned based upon the principles given for drunkeness in the Old testament. Christ would have been guilty of giving those folk an "occasion to sin" which He didn't do because He was God who could not sin.

The Psalmist said it wasn't good for kings to drink wine. My question is this. Are we not adopted children of the "King of Kings"?

The Nazerite priests were not permitted to drink wine I believe it was 7 days prior to going into the temple. My question is this. Those of us who are saved. Are we not all "believer priests"? Where is the temple today? It is our bodies where the Holy Spirit resides that is the temple.

Many use the passage in Timothy where Paul says to Tim. "take a little wine for the stomach" to indicate moderation. I believe Tim must have been abstaining if Paul had to tell him to drink a "little" wine. Evidently Tim wasnt drinking any if he had to be told to take a little.

How much is moderation. Legally, today about 2 beers will get you a DWI. So what is moderate?
Why is it only booze that we christians debate over. Why can't I just smoke half a joint instead of a whole one? Should I just do half a line of cocaine? Those substances are illegal. Is it the legality of drinking that makes it okay. Abortion is legal as well.

As christians we should be under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Take it from a guy who has did it all. One beer influences your thought processes even if it is the slightest of influence. Some say "I have a glass just to relax". Well there is nothing like prayer and Bible reading to bring relaxation.

BTW, there are all kinds of drinkers who have a problem. There are the weekend bingers. The derelic drunks, the sipper who is never out of control but still has to have a drink. Just because you can control your drinking doesn't mean your not hooked. When a crisis comes up in your life are you gonna hit your knees or hit the bottle? I wouldn't want to give myself the choice.

I never call myself a "recovering alcholic" that is a slap in the face to what God has done for me.
I was a drunkard and a pothead who Jesus saved. If we start out thinking its a sickness and not a sin then right off the bat we present an opportunity to minimize, by our lack of faith what God can do in that person's life. 12 steps is nice. But I believe if a person desires to do so they can do it with God alone. I've seen it many, many times in churches, rescue missions, my own life etc...

What about Rom.14:20,21. Although "all things are pure"v.20. We shouldnt be a stumbling block v21. to others. I think some like to flaunt their "christian liberty" in very inmature ways when it comes to certain issues. Let us never forget that before Jesus came into our lives we had NO liberty. We were in the bondage of our sins. So remember that when you choose to drink. There are some that have no liberty because they have never been saved. The ability to make a choice is where the liberty comes in. The poor wretch strung out on dope or booze has no liberty.

I have a in-law who is a baptist pastor. He enjoys his wine. On more than one occasion he has phoned his wife on his way home from his study to ask her to mix him a drink. He was stressed from the day's problems at the church. While he was an assciate he convinced his senior pastor that moderation was okay. He prides himself in doing so. Who knows if that pastor won't turn out to be a drunk one day? Growing up his home was wrecked because his mom was a drinker. She has to attend AA until this day.
For those of you who say "I only drink in my home so i won't be a stumbling block to people. Well I hope you don't have kids. Are they not as important as your other brothers and sisters in Christ? During all my hell-raising, drinking, doping days I could never point my finger at my parents and say "Well daddy you drink". I promise you if you drink in your home and your kids come home drunk someday the first thing they will do is throw it up in your face that you drink too.

I've probably rambled on an on. I just hate the booze friends. Its a home wrecker. It robs people of their lives. It is my personal conviction that the over all context of Scripture teaches abstinence. Some may think I'm bias because of my former life. To a degree that may be so. However; this is issue that is close to my heart and I have researched it exstensivly.

For a quick study listen to Adrian Rogers sermon
"Battle for the Bottle" it is archived at his website.

I urge you today to stop drinking. It is no good. One day it will sneak up and bite you. Don't risk it. God bless.

 

Alcohol is the chemical catalyst that leads to alcoholism, but not the cause. There has to be a propensity toward addictive behaviors in order to establish an addiction. Some drink to deaden their pain afflicted by another causative factor, such as for example molestation or abuse.

The non-alcoholic can drink in moderation and never become addicted. </font>[/QUOTE]Be careful BillyMac about saying never. I was at a NAMI (National Alliance for the Mentally Ill) meeting a couple of months ago and the speaker was from a Drug and Alcohol Rehab Center. There were a couple of very interesting things she said.

1. Just because someone has been able to drink or use drugs for along period of time without becomming addicted dosn't mean that they will never become addicted. Her example was a man in his 80's who had been a social drinker his entire life, but not an alcoholic. When his wife died he began to drink more and more until he finnally had to be checked into their facility for rehab. Her point was that the only sure way of never becomming addicted to alcohol or any drug for that matter is to never use it. If you use it at all the possibility exhists that you can become addicted.

2. The drug with the most dangerous withrdrawl symptoms possibly including death is alcohol. In comparioson she said herion withdrawl can be compared to bad case of the stomache flu. You may feel like you want to die durring herion withdrawl, but you proabably won't. In alcohol withdrawl the possiblity of death is much greater.

Bill </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for this post, BBB. You are correct. I should not have used the word never. I got a little nudge in my spirit when I typed that word, but let it stand and I shouldn't have. If we were but more sensitive to those little nudges outcomes here might be different.

 

Alcohol was not the "cause" of all of this. Put the blame where it is due - SIN. Suicide, homosexuality, alcoholism, podophilia, divorce and broken relationships are all a result of sin, nothing else, nothing more.

[Webdog - this is a forum for members of Baptist churches only. Non-Baptist church members are asked to post in "All Christian" forums. Thanks]

[ June 23, 2005, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

King James,

For the record Dude, I'm a dude myself not a lady. I just happen to have a girlie name.
What are you saying in your above post? Are you implying that Jesus made booze and people got drunk so therefore they accused him of being a drunk. Explain that statement please.

BTW, I did mean the encouraging things I posted on your topic of trying to find the path God wants you to take. I just didn't appreciate the loose accusations you made about Southern Bapt. and some of the other things. I got fleshly. So lets move on. I didn't respond all to well. For that I'm sorry.

Still, explain the above post.

 

I think foot fetishes are gross too but let's not add to the scriptures.

sorry but I couldn't resist.

 

The Holy Spirit teaches total abstinence from alcoholic beverages.

The Greek word NEPHALEOS is from the root word NEPHO. It means to totally abstain from alcohol in any form.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible - # 3525 - NEPHO (nay'-fo) - to abstain from wine.

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

That word for "sober" is NEPHALEOS. That is a command for every believer.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

That word "vigilant" is NEPHALEOS which means to abstain from all alcoholic beverages.

1 Timothy 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

2 Timothy 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

The word "watch" is NEPHALEOS.

Titus 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Abstaining from alcohol is a duty of every born again Christian.

 

King James,

I was simply commenting on BillyMac's statement in the quote.

I don't enter into the dicussions on the BB either pro or con on drinking because it is a horse that has been beaten to death here time and time again.

Most of the threads on drinking degenerate into a few people on both sides saying "I'm right and your wrong". Nothing gets accomplished.

Bill </font>[/QUOTE]I wouldn't say nothing gets accomplished. Shannon and Texassky posted some very good posts and good points as to why not to drink. Thanks for the time you took to post, Fellas.

I realize there are a few who are outright "I'm right...you're wrong", but if they...if WE...can keep it civil and post our reasons for our arguments with the goal to teach and not to convert, we can all learn some things in here.

I'm not saying Shannon and Texassky are the only posts worth reading, but these are personal testimonials that took a lot of courage to post.

I wouldn't notice a drunk if I saw him because I didn't grow up with alcoholics. My husband, OTOH, did and can spot drunken behavior a mile away. His brother died an alcoholic at 32. He left home when Hubby was a young teen and during our second year of marriage, I got a call that his brother died.

I got the message mixed up. I only really knew of one brother he had..the other wasn't mentioned much. The conversation went something like this:

*RING!*

Me: Hello?

FIL: *silence* Hello

Me: Hi, Dad! You seem speechless today. (I thought he was joking around with me)

FIL: ###'s brother died

Me: Brian?

FIL: No, his brother, Arthur.

I knew his grandfather was ill for quite some time, so I thought he said, "No, his grandfather". FIL was crying and I didn't make out the words well.

I told my husband his grandfather died. We went to his parents' house (we had no kids, yet) and were there a couple days when Hubby called and told his work that his grandfather died. My SIL overheard the conversation and came out to me in the kitchen.

SIL: ###, who do you and ### believe died?

Me: ###'s grandfather.

SIL: No, &%$& it! It was his BROTHER!!! ARTHUR!!!

Me: [face went white and I went to tell him]

SIL: NO, let me tell him! [shaking head in disbelief]

This was the beginning of what I thought-and still think-is a shaky relationship between Hubby's family and myself.

Hubby told me that he died of alcoholism. He always slept facing the door because he felt people were going to kill him. Hubby tried to wake him one morning and Arthur-in his sleep-swung a big punch, missing Hubby by inches.

My husband believes he was saved, but he couldn't beat the alcoholism.

As I mentioned, we met in Bible college. Hubby was the first to go to college and the only one in his family to go to church (except for funerals and weddings). I never gave them any reason to feel ashamed of their lives because I was too busy feeling like I didn't measure up since that incident (and accidentally bleaching MIL's counter and accidentally fusing two pots together by trying to make a makeshift double-boiler, etc). Hubby and I didn't drink at their gettogethers, and I suppose since we both refused the drinks that they felt we thought we were better than them. I didn't think this then, but looking back, this seems possible (that they would think this way). They always made me feel like a nun when I was around them: "accidently" (but on purpose) swearing and then covering their mouth as if to say "oops!". I felt like a running gag in the family.


My husband was asked to get drunk at the academy so the other officers could run scenerios, but he turned them down.

He failed the question, "Do you have a problem with alcohol?" on the polygraph test. They think it was because his brother died of alcoholism.

So, he is very aware of what could happen if he started to drink. This is one problem I couldn't deal with and am thankful every day that he isn't an alcoholic.

But, the posts have given me a lot to think about and decisions to make. I've been pondering over taking a little wine a night to aid my cholesterol, and was considering asking my doctor about it. But, I've made my decision that I'll bypass the wine. There's not enough evidence to prove it will help and too much proving it can do more harm than good.

 

A bowl of Cheerio's or oatmeal will do more and I seriously doubt anyone ever died from eating oatmeal and dying.

Like I said before.... </font>[/QUOTE]LOL! That's puting it mildly.

Diane, I agree. In fact, other things that help lower cholesterol are almonds and cinnamon.

Doctors don't tell you this (things would be SO much simpler if they did), but I learned by reading a very lengthy thesis on the internet by a doctor meant for fellow doctors that the longer bile is in the system, the higher the cholesterol will raise. I'm not sure why, but to put it basically, you want to get all the nutrients in your system and get rid of the excess as quickly as possible. This explains why fruits and grains help lower cholesterol. Why can't doctors just explain this instead of telling us what we need to eat and shouldn't eat?

Oh, and by the way, they've found that heart attacks and strokes are the leading cause of death in women. Certain foods...or at least overeating certain foods can eventually lead to heart attacks and strokes.

But, pastors will stand at the pulpit, go on and on about drinking and smoking (and yes, they should never be started and if they have, should be ended quick as possible) but say nothing about gluttony while heading toward a 7-way bypass that the church has to pay for.

I believe the reason gluttony is ignored is either the pastor has the problem and can't overcome it, or plain and simple...ya gotta eat. You don't HAVE to -- and it's advised against -- drinking and smoking. So, then you have to ask where the line is when eating to survive becomes a myriad of medical problems and health risks.