Regarding those who have never heard...

[Alive in Christ]

All the people around the world who have never heard the message of Christ. What is our responsibility to them?

Well, we should continue to take the gosple to them. Nobody is argueing against that. They have a measure of Light as it is, but the fullness of revelation is lacking.

Of course we should continue to spread the gosple.

 

[JesusFan]

You have cut to the heart of the matter. If anyone can be saved independently of the gospel, then let's call all our missionaries home, lest somebody hear and reject the gospel.

Believe that God will save those like Infants and challenged peoples by His application of effectual grace on their behalf, BUT believe that ALL will be held accountible to God based upon being sinners and now in age of accountibility!

This "theory" is like one I heard while in College, that God elected to save ALL in Christ, and that ONLY those who have heard AND rejected Him will be lost!

Why urgency to preach jesus to whole earth, if by hearing and than rejecting Him, that condemns them from once being saved state?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Jesusfan posted...

This "theory" is like one I heard while in College, that God elected to save ALL in Christ, and that ONLY those who have heard AND rejected Him will be lost!

Although I am advocating for the "inclusivist" view for the most part, I DO NOT agree with what you posted above.

I believe that is going a bit too far with it.

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan...

I posted from the material...

And you responded...

Agreed.

And the inclusivist view agrees, as it says in the material I posted...

Its not that people are saved through false religions. Its that God Almighty has the ability, and desire, to save some of them, namely...those whom He knows would embrace Christ, if they had the opportunity....

Its such a beautiful truth, and so very scriptural, I dont undestand why people rebel away from it.

I believe the Bible clearly teaches general revelation, revelation through nature. Man can come to an understanding of the existence of God and somewhat of His nature through general revelation, but there is no salvation in the Bible apart from evangelization.

I do not believe that general revelation includes any human made religion. They are all idolatry, and thus an abomination to God, as I read once more in my devotions once again this morning. All human religions turn people completely away from God, as Romans 1 clearly teaches.

 

[John of Japan]

So what you're saying is that the kids on "Jersey Shore" would fit right in to shinto books?
:laugh:

You've got me! I don't even know what "Jersey Shore" is. Don't have it over here.

JoJ; how do they react when you present a totally different world view to them?

They want to endlessly study it without believing. Japanese love to study, but not to commit.

 

[Alive in Christ]

John of Japan...

I believe the Bible clearly teaches general revelation, revelation through nature. Man can come to an understanding of the existence of God and somewhat of His nature through general revelation, but there is no salvation in the Bible apart from evangelization.

So, millions upon millions of poor unfortunate souls will spend eternity in hell because of the unfortunate, unevangelized location where they lived?

(some desert Island, or deep in the jungles, etc?)

You honestly think that God is completely impotant, and He does not have the ability, or desire, to give "light" to these extremely needy people?

Even though the scriptures tell us that God gives Light to every person born into this world?

I am not against evangelism at all. God tells us to evangelize, so we do. I do.

But I do NOT believe that God does not know how to evangelise. I believe that He is the BEST at it.

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan...

So, millions upon millions of poor unfortunate souls will spend eternity in hell because of the unfortunate, unevangelized location where they lived?

(some desert Island, or deep in the jungles, etc?)

Yes, I believe all who do not know and believe in Christ are destined for an eternal Hell. But it is certainly not because of their location. That's a totally unfounded idea. They will go to Hell. I'd rather not believe that, but I have to because that is what God's special revelation teaches.

You honestly think that God is completely impotant, and He does not have the ability, or desire, to give "light" to these extremely needy people?

I've never interacted with you on the BB until now, but this kind of rhetoric leaves me completely unmoved and even repelled. Don't put words into my mouth.

Even though the scriptures tell us that God gives Light to every person born into this world?

God gives light to every person born into the world. This is true. However, that person must respond to the light they have been given. At that point they will be given more light, and God will send someone. That is where us missionaries come in. The Bible says that all who seek will find (Matt. 6:6-7).

In the book Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa, Evangelist Bill Rice (my mother's uncle), tells of going to a pygmy tribe deep in the African jungle with a missionary and a translator. This tribe had never seen a white man, and were very afraid. But there was an old man who, when he heard the Word of God, said, "I thought it must be that way. When I was young I climbed a tree and said, 'God, where are you?'" But the man was not saved from his sin until he trusted Christ as Savior.

I am not against evangelism at all. God tells us to evangelize, so we do. I do.

But I do NOT believe that God does not know how to evangelise. I believe that He is the BEST at it.

The Bible is very clear that God uses human instruments to proclaim His message, and has no other plan.

"14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Rom. 10)

Beyond that, logically speaking you would have to prove there is good in human-made religion in order to prove your point. Otherwise you are suggesting an a-theistic (note the dash) method of salvation. Study comparative religions. Cultures only seek the spiritual through their religions. There are no records in human history of people in non-Christian cultures seeking God outside of their religion.

So, let's try Buddhism. What good can you find in Buddhism? I'll be waiting for your response.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sanders and Pinnock are a bit off the deep end. Let's not forget to thank Pinnock for deciding for us that God doesn't know everything, doesn't control everything, and is genuinely surprised at things (since, after all, He isn't entirely capable of controlling things).

If you believe in the biblical doctrine of predestination, there's no need to question things: God will get the Gospel to the elect. The question about "those who haven't heard" isn't really a question at all, since God saves those He wants saved.

If you think about it, the whole question of "What about those who haven't heard?" really assumes that God is not all that sovereign (as Pinnock and Sanders (and Boyd) would like us to believe). God is just a bystander. But if you believe in a God who is truly sovereign -- such as the God who controlled Rehoboam in order to bring about His decree -- then you don't have to fear that "those who haven't heard" will somehow slip through the cracks.

There are no cracks. God gives the Gospel and faith to His elect. Those who aren't elect aren't going to believe anyway.

This is sort of like asking, "What if a meteor destroys the earth before Christ returns?" If you believe in God, then this question can easily be brushed aside as a non-issue.

You are exactly right...:thumbs::thumbs::applause::applause:

 

[John of Japan]

But I do NOT believe that God does not know how to evangelise. I believe that He is the BEST at it.

The more I think about it the less this statement makes sense linguistically. In the NT, "evangelize" is the verb euaggelizw, meaning according to the Fribergs' Anlex:

(1) generally bring or announce good news (LU 1.19); (2) predominately in the NT, as making known God's message of salvation with authority and power tell the good news, make known the gospel, evangelize (AC 5.42); passive have the gospel preached to someone (MT 11.5)

So to evangelize is to give good news. In the NT the word occurs 52 times, exclusively used of humans except in Revelation 10:7, where God gives good news to His servants the prophets, and several verses where an angel gives good news.

So where do you get God evangelizing the lost? That is not in the Bible.

 

[Alive in Christ]

John of Japan...

"14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Rom. 10)

Thats a wonderful passage of scripture. Wonderfull truth. And we christians do evangelize, and we will always do it.

But, again...what about the millions, and probably billions, who lived for centuries after centuries, and centuries, with the missionaries not getting to them. And there are some dying right now who havent been evangelized!

Darn the luck...Hell is thier doom.

Well, I say, because of the testimony of the scriptures, that hell is NOT automatically their doom.

God says that He gives "LIGHT" to every person who comes into the world. And if God gives "light",(spiritual revelation) then God can cause that light to be effectual.

I find it just stunning that you, and others, believe that we humans can evangelize, and yet....God Almighty....CAN'T!!

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan...

Thats a wonderful passage of scripture. Wonderfull truth. And we christians do evangelize, and we will always do it.

But, again...what about the millions, and probably billions, who lived for centuries after centuries, and centuries, with the missionaries not getting to them. And there are some dying right now who havent been evangelized!

Darn the luck...Hell is thier doom.

You are following your emotions here, not the precious Word of God.

Well, I say, because of the testimony of the scriptures, that hell is NOT automatically their doom.

God says that He gives "LIGHT" to every person who comes into the world. And if God gives "light",(spiritual revelation) then God can cause that light to be effectual.

The Bible is very clear that Christ is the only way (John 14:6), and that there is no other name under Heaven for salvation (Acts 4:12).

In fact, the verse you keep referring to proves that very thing. John 1:9 says, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John is referring directly to Jesus Christ as the Light of the world. You are stretching the Scriptures badly to make them refer to anything else but Christ, including "spiritual revelation" as you say it. The Light is Christ, nothing else.

Here is how Christ lights all who are in the world. Everything good in the world comes from Christ through His servants. All over the world the first hospitals were built by missionaries, the first charities were started by Christians, education was started by Christians. Missionaries are virtually always the first to put a language into written form. An excellent book on this is, What if Jesus Had Never Been Born? by James Kennedy.

If a non-believer among the billions who do not know Christ is sincere about seeking the truth, he will find that Christ is the Light. He will learn what I've just said, that all good things come from Christ. Islam destroys. Buddhism makes poor. All religions destroy. Only Christ brings good.

I find it just stunning that you, and others, believe that we humans can evangelize, and yet....God Almighty....CAN'T!!

This kind of rhetoric harms your cause. No one is saying that God cannot evangelize.

 

[Alive in Christ]

John of Japan...

In fact, the verse you keep referring to proves that very thing. John 1:9 says, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John is referring directly to Jesus Christ as the Light of the world. You are stretching the Scriptures badly to make them refer to anything else but Christ, including "spiritual revelation" as you say it. The Light is Christ, nothing else.

Well, praise the Lord! I think you are coming around. You are saying the spiritual revelation I have been referring to as being given to those who never heard is being given through Christ, while I was having it come from God the Father.

I've got no problem with that. Either one will due. The Holy Spirit could be giving it as well.

We are making progress. It appears that you are finally "getting" what I am saying, and you seem to be agreeing. :thumbs:

Praise the Lord!

 

[Iconoclast]

John of Japan...



Well, praise the Lord! I think you are coming around. You are saying the spiritual revelation I have been referring to as being given to those who never heard is being given through Christ, while I was having it come from God the Father.

I've got no problem with that. Either one will due. The Holy Spirit could be giving it as well.

We are making progress. It appears that you are finally "getting" what I am saying, and you seem to be agreeing. :thumbs:

Praise the Lord!

No....he is not agreeing to your error.He is trying to help you come to truth.

 

[Alive in Christ]

No....he is not agreeing to your error.He is trying to help you come to truth.

Well, you could be right. :wavey:

 

[Amy.G]

God will get the gospel to any "whosoever will" no matter where they are.

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan...



Well, praise the Lord! I think you are coming around. You are saying the spiritual revelation I have been referring to as being given to those who never heard is being given through Christ, while I was having it come from God the Father.

I've got no problem with that. Either one will due. The Holy Spirit could be giving it as well.

We are making progress. It appears that you are finally "getting" what I am saying, and you seem to be agreeing. :thumbs:

Praise the Lord!

No, I don't think we have agreed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to believe that someone can be saved without the Gospel being proclaimed to them, on their own somehow. I don't believe that and never will.

 

[Alive in Christ]

John of Japan...

No, I don't think we have agreed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to believe that someone can be saved without the Gospel being proclaimed to them, on their own somehow.

Oh my goodness, no!! Not on their own.

The Triune God will be STRONGLY involved in any encounter of revelation regarding anyone being saved.

 

[Tom Butler]

Uh, let me see. I remember a scripture verse-um, where was it. Wait a minute. It's coming to me.

Got it!

I Corinthians 1:21

....it pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING to save them that believe.

And I'll repeat this verse first quoted by convicted 1. Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I really don't see much wiggle room here. People are saved by hearing the gospel, and believing. Without hearing the gospel, they have no hope.

 

[Benjamin]

I'm with Amy, in that God will get the Good News to every man though the light He put into all the world. I'm very cautious about about drawing human lines that have to be crossed or making specific rules that others must follow.

 

[Alive in Christ]

John of Japan...

I said...

I find it just stunning that you, and others, believe that we humans can evangelize, and yet....God Almighty....CAN'T!!

And you said...

This kind of rhetoric harms your cause. No one is saying that God cannot evangelize.

Yes you are. You are clearly and consistantly advocating that the only possible way to get the gosple to people is through the normal methods of human evangelism.

Verbal wittnesing
Tracts
Missionaries
etc etc etc

You are saying that it is either THAT or NOTHING. Humans do it, or they burn in hell.

And All I am saying is that in the "hard cases", such as people on little islands for centuries, and it deep forests for centuries, Almighty God can easily give saving revelation to these ones, so that they have the same opportunity to be saved as the others. The scriptures are clear that He CAN do it, and that He WANTS to do it.

The scriptures are clear that God is no respector of persons, and that He gives "Light"..(spiritual revelation) to every person who comes into the world.