Regarding those who have never heard...

[humblethinker]

I asked one proponant of Reformed Theology, "You mean that for hundreds and hundreds of years there were no 'elect' among the millions and millions of people in China???"

And he said, That's right."

I retorted, "HOGWASH!"

One of the Kahns asked the father of Marco Polo to have the West send a 100 missionaries to China to tell them about their God and religion. The Roman Church sent only two and they stayed just a few months before returning to Italy.

So tragic, ... such a wonderful opportunity to take the gospel to China that was missed.

Very interesting point. Here's documentation of such.

 

[Paco]

Very interesting point. Here's documentation of such.

Oh, ... Thanks!

 

[DHK]

The sun doesn't have to turn to darkness or the moon into blood for supernatural demonstrations of the Spirit of God to occur. Nor does each one of us have to be present to see it when it does happen. The passage just states that it will happen before the great and notable day of the Lord. We are still waiting for that great and notable day of the Lord.

Signs and wonders occured all through the book of Acts without the sun turning to darkness. Paul said that his speech and preaching was in demonstration of the Spirit and of power. He also said that he "fully preached the gospel" "through mighty signs and wonders" (Rom 15:19).
I think we need more of that kind of preaching today.

You are not the Apostle Peter who preached on the Day of Pentecost, neither the Apostle Paul. Why take Scripture out of its context?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Originally Posted by Paco + a response....


The reports of Muslims coming to faith in Christ as a result of having dreams and visions of Christ is quite intriguing, ... though it kinda messes up my theology a bit ....

It should not mess you up as they still get saved through the word. The dream or vision simply pushes them to listen.

Amen to that. There is a good possibility of God giving them revelation in that way.

Praise God.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Paco...

The reports of Muslims coming to faith in Christ as a result of having dreams and visions of Christ are quite intriguing, ... though it kinda messes up my theology a bit ....

PRAISE GOD!!

Our God is an awsome God, and...needless to say...He can do as He pleases.

This is a good report, Paco. Thank you for sharing!

 

[John of Japan]

Very interesting link about the legend, thanks.

You have proposed a view that seems to comport with my view of God's merciful character. A couple of observations:
Would you agree that presenting the gospel to an unsaved person (the kind that would have never have sought after God otherwise) gives them an opportunity that they would not have had if you hadn't presented it to them? To elaborate, this lost person may never have sought God through 'natural revelation', but being that you showed them their destiny and informed them of a God that loves them, then they responded to God in faith to salvation. Is this not the burden that we have? The fact that 'natural revelation' seekers are so rare, that we must present the message to those who aren't 'natural revelation' seekers so that they might have another chance of having saving faith?

I don't know if there is any way to tell how rare it is to have seekers of God through natural revelation. At any rate....

Yes, I do believe that a lost person who has not sought God through natural revelation can be brought to Christ through the witness of a believer, when otherwise they might never be saved. In other words, yes, it is the responsibility of the disciples of Christ to preach the Gospel to every single person in the world. I think the Bible is clear on that.

Having said that, I do believe in the depravity of man, meaning that no one seeks God without the work of the Holy Spirit, whether it be through natural revelation or through the Gospel as given by believers. It must be the Holy Spirit who works through the witness. No one comes to Christ without the working of the Holy Spirit to first convict them of sin (John 16:7-11).

 

[Paco]

You are not the Apostle Peter who preached on the Day of Pentecost, neither the Apostle Paul. Why take Scripture out of its context?

??????

No, I am not Peter and I am not Paul. I have never made that claim. And in the short time I have been perusing this forum, I haven't come across anone who has. And I really do not understand what you mean or what you are implying by making such a statement. It doesn't make sense.

But no, .... there is no Scripture taken out of context, just simply observing what did and what did not happen, ... and taking the Bible as it reads without inserting bias.

Peter preached "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" and related his (Joel's) prophecy to what happened on the Day of Pentecost. God poured out His Spirit. There is no record of the sun being turned into darkness that day. There is no mention of the moon being turned into blood. Obviously, there is still a future fulfillment of that part of the prophecy, therefore, the "great and notable day of the Lord" awaits fulfillment.

Signs, wonders and miracles did occur that day, and re-occured throughout the book of Acts and in the life and ministry of the church. God is the one who worked these miracles, and He performed them through His servants, those who believed in Christ, just as the Lord Jesus had foretold, "these signs will follow them that believe...." "They went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them confirming the word with signs following."

And Paul testified clearly of what Christ did through Him in the preaching of the gospel and specified how he "fully preached the gospel" with signs and wonders. So, what is the problem??? You either believe what is written or you do not.

Oh, .... and I did say "I think we need more of that kind of preaching today."

Surely you agree with that statement .... especially when confronted with a world of six billion people, the majority of whom are lost. Three fifths of the population of the world are unevangelized. Another large part are influenced by apostate Christianity. Even in America, much of the religious world is unsaved. Many profess Christ and call themselves Christian yet they either reject the tenets of orthodox Christian faith or they go through the motions of being religious with no real substance. The mainline denominations are all in serious decline. Even Baptist churches are in decline. Oh there is a megachurch here and there, but if you look for the 16+ million members we claim on our membership rolls, you cannot find but about 7 million in church on any given Sunday. We are losing the battle for the souls of men.

I think we need to return to primitive Christianity, ... return to their faith, return to their methods of evangelism, and return to their source of power in the Holy Spirit.

 

[DHK]

??????

No, I am not Peter and I am not Paul. I have never made that claim. And in the short time I have been perusing this forum, I haven't come across anone who has. And I really do not understand what you mean or what you are implying by making such a statement. It doesn't make sense.

But no, .... there is no Scripture taken out of context, just simply observing what did and what did not happen, ... and taking the Bible as it reads without inserting bias.

Peter preached "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" and related his (Joel's) prophecy to what happened on the Day of Pentecost. God poured out His Spirit. There is no record of the sun being turned into darkness that day. There is no mention of the moon being turned into blood. Obviously, there is still a future fulfillment of that part of the prophecy, therefore, the "great and notable day of the Lord" awaits fulfillment.

Signs, wonders and miracles did occur that day, and re-occured throughout the book of Acts and in the life and ministry of the church. God is the one who worked these miracles, and He performed them through His servants, those who believed in Christ, just as the Lord Jesus had foretold, "these signs will follow them that believe...." "They went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them confirming the word with signs following."

You misunderstand the Scriptures here.
There is only ONE Pentecost. It will never happen again. Only once was there a mighty rushing wind, with tongues of fire, accompanied with the speaking of foreign languages. It will never happen again. It was a historical event. God spoke to Moses in a burning bush that never burned. It will never happen again. It was an historical event. We cannot duplicate history.

When Jesus said greater WORKS you shall do, he did not say "miracles." Christ never said anything about performing miracles. Think now. Christ was on this earth for only three years. If you are saved before the age of 20 and live past the age of 60, then you have at least 40 years to serve the Lord, 40 years of ministry compared to the 3 years that Christ had. In those years you will have opportunity to go to more places, speak to more people, preach the gospel more times, and see more people come to the Lord than in the three years Christ did. The greatest miracle there is, is to see a soul come to Christ. These are the greater works he is speaking of. He never promised any of his disciples that they could do miracles.

And Paul testified clearly of what Christ did through Him in the preaching of the gospel and specified how he "fully preached the gospel" with signs and wonders. So, what is the problem??? You either believe what is written or you do not.

You are not "rightly dividing the word of truth."
What did Paul really say?

Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Corinthians 12:12)
--The signs and wonders were marks of an Apostle. They were a sign to authenticate him as an apostle. You are not an Apostle, as I already mentioned. You are not Paul; are not Peter. Those types of miracles, the gift of miracles has ceased. I believe what is written. You are making things up, not taking Scripture seriously.

Oh, .... and I did say "I think we need more of that kind of preaching today."

What kind? Honest, scriptural, expositional, and Spirit-filled, or:

rolling on the floor, hooting and hollering, speaking gibberish, barking like a dog, hissing like a snake, etc.
What kind?

Surely you agree with that statement .... especially when confronted with a world of six billion people, the majority of whom are lost. Three fifths of the population of the world are unevangelized. Another large part are influenced by apostate Christianity. Even in America, much of the religious world is unsaved. Many profess Christ and call themselves Christian yet they either reject the tenets of orthodox Christian faith or they go through the motions of being religious with no real substance. The mainline denominations are all in serious decline. Even Baptist churches are in decline. Oh there is a megachurch here and there, but if you look for the 16+ million members we claim on our membership rolls, you cannot find but about 7 million in church on any given Sunday. We are losing the battle for the souls of men.

That is very true. And that is why we need clarity in the preaching of the gospel--the power of God unto salvation. Miracles do not save. Only Christ can save. Miracles would not save the rich man or his five brothers as Abraham told him when he was in hell.

I think we need to return to primitive Christianity, ... return to their faith, return to their methods of evangelism, and return to their source of power in the Holy Spirit.

We need to believe and practice the Bible, that is all.

 

[Alive in Christ]

??????

No, I am not Peter and I am not Paul. I have never made that claim. And in the short time I have been perusing this forum, I haven't come across anone who has. And I really do not understand what you mean or what you are implying by making such a statement. It doesn't make sense.

But no, .... there is no Scripture taken out of context, just simply observing what did and what did not happen, ... and taking the Bible as it reads without inserting bias.

Peter preached "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" and related his (Joel's) prophecy to what happened on the Day of Pentecost. God poured out His Spirit. There is no record of the sun being turned into darkness that day. There is no mention of the moon being turned into blood. Obviously, there is still a future fulfillment of that part of the prophecy, therefore, the "great and notable day of the Lord" awaits fulfillment.

Signs, wonders and miracles did occur that day, and re-occured throughout the book of Acts and in the life and ministry of the church. God is the one who worked these miracles, and He performed them through His servants, those who believed in Christ, just as the Lord Jesus had foretold, "these signs will follow them that believe...." "They went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them confirming the word with signs following."

And Paul testified clearly of what Christ did through Him in the preaching of the gospel and specified how he "fully preached the gospel" with signs and wonders. So, what is the problem??? You either believe what is written or you do not.

Oh, .... and I did say "I think we need more of that kind of preaching today."

Surely you agree with that statement .... especially when confronted with a world of six billion people, the majority of whom are lost. Three fifths of the population of the world are unevangelized. Another large part are influenced by apostate Christianity. Even in America, much of the religious world is unsaved. Many profess Christ and call themselves Christian yet they either reject the tenets of orthodox Christian faith or they go through the motions of being religious with no real substance. The mainline denominations are all in serious decline. Even Baptist churches are in decline. Oh there is a megachurch here and there, but if you look for the 16+ million members we claim on our membership rolls, you cannot find but about 7 million in church on any given Sunday. We are losing the battle for the souls of men.

I think we need to return to primitive Christianity, ... return to their faith, return to their methods of evangelism, and return to their source of power in the Holy Spirit.

Paco...

You have to understand, We have a few fundamentalist types, around here. They are sort of the resident "doubters" on here. They sort of have God a little box, and they just cant fathom the idea that God might want to do some things outside of thier box. (God does things outside thier box, anyway!)

But they mean well, and they have a lot of good things to add to the conversation from time to time.

 

[John of Japan]

The reports of Muslims coming to faith in Christ as a result of having dreams and visions of Christ are quite intriguing, ... though it kinda messes up my theology a bit ....

This is easily explainable. Before Islam was invented the entire Middle East had become Christian. To this day, many of those countries have up to a 5% Christian population. Plus, Jesus is mentioned in the Koran as "Isa," and all Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet from Allah. So these influences make it easy to explain why a Muslim might have dreams and visions of Christ, without it being necessary to postulate direct revelation from God in those dreams.

Virtually all cultures have remnants of the worship of the true God in them, or influences from Christianity in their cultures. China's original religion (no doubt passed down from Babylon) was the worship of the monotheistic almighty God Shang Ti, (also called Tien, or "Heaven," in Confucious, etc.) with elements very close to pre-Israel worship. And I could show you in various Chinese characters Noah's ark (8 people in a ship), righteousness through a sheep sacrifice, etc.

Again, traditional Buddhism should have no Heaven or Hell if truly based on the teachings of Gautama. However, there is evidence that the Heaven (Gokuraku) and Hell (Jigoku) of certain Japanese forms of Buddhism came from Nestorianism when Japanese studied in China. See John Young's excellent book, By Foot to China at: http://www.aina.org/books/bftc/bftc.htm#c16

 

[DHK]

Paco...

You have to understand, We have a few fundamentalist types, around here. They are sort of the resident "doubters" on here. They sort of have God a little box, and they just cant fathom the idea that God might want to do some things outside of thier box. (God does things outside thier box, anyway!)

But they mean well, and they have a lot of good things to add to the conversation from time to time.

Such demeaning remarks are uncalled for, and do not contribute to the conversation. Please do not post if your purpose is not to answer the OP or contribute in any positive way. There are other boards where you can post your poison.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

"Poison" is in the eye of the beholder, you know.

Many on here consider hard core fundamentalism to be the the worst poisin. I dont. I just consider it great error.

As for me, did I name anyone in my post?

No, I didnt.

Why so defensive?

 

[DHK]

DHK...

"Poison" is in the eye of the beholder, you know.

I am not here to argue. You are derailing this thread just like a troll.
If there were another moderator here he would give you an infraction for this. You should know better by now for remarks like this. You have been warned. Stay on topic. I will not address this again.

 

[freeatlast]

Just maybe the Muslim nations are NOW having their time of visitation, "Acts" experiences to testify to jesus and the Gispel. as peter said about prophet Joel in last days?

Actually Peter was trying to get the Jews to see what they had done and what was happening at that moment. They had just accused him of being drunk.
Peter used the Joel passage and it really needs to read carefully from chapter 2 through three. Peter quotes several verses from the Joel account but he is not suggesting it is all going to happen right then. He is trying show them it is the last days and Messiah has come.
As for the Muslims nations I am not sure what the Lord is doing with them in particular.
Just keep in mind that much of the Joel passage has not been fulfilled yet but it will be during these last days.
Back to the OP. People have to hear the gospel to be saved. However God may use any number of methods to get the gospel to them or them to the gospel. Some have to be moved by certain events to get them to listen or seek the truth and dreams and or visions can be some of those event. In the case of the Muslim those who have had the dreams or visions are not saved by them, but because of them would be open to hear the truth and then after their salvation they would be used to carry that truth to other Muslims. The dreams and visions would be a tool used only to get the door open and not the rule of how their salvation is normally brought about.

 

[Paco]

Actually Peter was trying to get the Jews to see what they had done and what was happening at that moment. They had just accused him of being drunk.
Peter used the Joel passage and it really needs to read carefully from chapter 2 through three. Peter quotes several verses from the Joel account but he is not suggesting it is all going to happen right then. He is trying show them it is the last days and Messiah has come.
As for the Muslims nations I am not sure what the Lord is doing with them in particular.
Just keep in mind that much of the Joel passage has not been fulfilled yet but it will be during these last days.
Back to the OP. People have to hear the gospel to be saved. However God may use any number of methods to get the gospel to them or them to the gospel. Some have to be moved by certain events to get them to listen or seek the truth and dreams and or visions can be some of those event. In the case of the Muslim those who have had the dreams or visions are not saved by them, but because of them would be open to hear the truth and then after their salvation they would be used to carry that truth to other Muslims. The dreams and visions would be a tool used only to get the door open and not the rule of how their salvation is normally brought about.

I just a few minutes ago had a brother in my office who told me about a man in his church who had a dream a couple of weeks ago. In this dream he had an automobile accident and saw his head rolling down the road after the collision. The following Sunday he responded to the invitation in church and got saved. His wife and two daughters also received Christ and were saved.

WOW!!! Four people who got saved because of a dream. Of course they heard the gospel too, and responded to the invitaiton to receive Christ, ... but it all started with a dream.

 

[DHK]

I just a few minutes ago had a brother in my office who told me about a man in his church who had a dream a couple of weeks ago. In this dream he had an automobile accident and saw his head rolling down the road after the collision. The following Sunday he responded to the invitation in church and got saved. His wife and two daughters also received Christ and were saved.

WOW!!! Four people who got saved because of a dream. Of course they heard the gospel too, and responded to the invitaiton to receive Christ, ... but it all started with a dream.

They didn't get saved because of a dream. They got saved in spite of a dream. It seems to me that it is evident that the Holy Spirit had already been working in their hearts. It was just a matter of time before they responded. The dream was inconsequential.

 

[JesusFan]

They didn't get saved because of a dream. They got saved in spite of a dream. It seems to me that it is evident that the Holy Spirit had already been working in their hearts. It was just a matter of time before they responded. The dream was inconsequential.

wht about those times though whemn missionaries have reported going to a remote area, and met by leaders of tribe saying had "vision/dream" that men would be bring to them the Book, Son of true God etc?

or reports from the field on how God seems to be using visions and dreams to 'wake up" the Muslim peoples today? that groups have been receiving jesus, and some reporting dreams from God showing them jesus, not Allah, the way?

 

[DHK]

wht about those times though whemn missionaries have reported going to a remote area, and met by leaders of tribe saying had "vision/dream" that men would be bring to them the Book, Son of true God etc?

or reports from the field on how God seems to be using visions and dreams to 'wake up" the Muslim peoples today? that groups have been receiving jesus, and some reporting dreams from God showing them jesus, not Allah, the way?

Again, they are anecdotal.
For the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
Having said that, it is our responsibility to reach these people with the gospel.

 

[The Archangel]

I just a few minutes ago had a brother in my office who told me about a man in his church who had a dream a couple of weeks ago. In this dream he had an automobile accident and saw his head rolling down the road after the collision. The following Sunday he responded to the invitation in church and got saved. His wife and two daughters also received Christ and were saved.

WOW!!! Four people who got saved because of a dream. Of course they heard the gospel too, and responded to the invitaiton to receive Christ, ... but it all started with a dream.

wht about those times though whemn missionaries have reported going to a remote area, and met by leaders of tribe saying had "vision/dream" that men would be bring to them the Book, Son of true God etc?

or reports from the field on how God seems to be using visions and dreams to 'wake up" the Muslim peoples today? that groups have been receiving jesus, and some reporting dreams from God showing them jesus, not Allah, the way?

Again, they are anecdotal.
For the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
Having said that, it is our responsibility to reach these people with the gospel.

The Problem With Dreams...

You know, I don't think--especially seeing the biblical record--that we can say dreams are merely "anecdotal." Further, I don't think we can say people get saved "in spite of dreams." I also do not think we can say people can get saved because of dreams.

I, too, have heard about Muslims, Hindus, etc. dreaming dreams that, somewhere down the road, result in salvation.

We must be careful NOT to say "the dream(s) saved."

Can God send dreams? Sure. Does He? Sure. In Acts 10, we see Cornelius having a vision (dream) and responding to it.

Notice, however,--and this is a HUGE point--the dream did not save Cornelius. The dream did, however, drive him toward the Gospel.

I think the same thing might be seen today: In places where there is no Gospel witness, God grants dreams. The result of those dreams is to drive someone to the Gospel. After they come into contact with the Gospel, through the power of the Holy Spirit, they can be and often are saved.

But, make no mistake, it is not a dream that saves--it is the Gospel. And, that Gospel must be preached (through print, verbal, etc. means).

The Archangel

 

[JesusFan]

[

QUOTE=The Archangel;1725691]The Problem With Dreams...

You know, I don't think--especially seeing the biblical record--that we can say dreams are merely "anecdotal." Further, I don't think we can say people get saved "in spite of dreams." I also do not think we can say people can get saved because of dreams.

I, too, have heard about Muslims, Hindus, etc. dreaming dreams that, somewhere down the road, result in salvation.

We must be careful NOT to say "the dream(s) saved."

Can God send dreams? Sure. Does He? Sure. In Acts 10, we see Cornelius having a vision (dream) and responding to it.

Notice, however,--and this is a HUGE point--the dream did not save Cornelius. The dream did, however, drive him toward the Gospel.

I think the same thing might be seen today: In places where there is no Gospel witness, God grants dreams. The result of those dreams is to drive someone to the Gospel. After they come into contact with the Gospel, through the power of the Holy Spirit, they can be and often are saved.

But, make no mistake, it is not a dream that saves--it is the Gospel. And, that Gospel must be preached (through print, verbal, etc. means).

The Archangel

[/QUOTE]


just wondering if this could be an example of God still confirming jesus and His Gospel by doing things like we see in Acts, and once established, no more required to be doing them any more?

Also, since a believer in DoG, would see this as part of the process God would use to make sure that His elect would receive the Gospel of Christ and get saved by grace of God!

And we ALL can agere its salvation by the atoning death of Jesus upon Cross that saves us, and its by faith that grace is applied towards us!