Regeneration and justification

[TCGreek]

NOW YOU GOT IT, TC!!! The Spirit PERSUADED Lydia -- convicted her and revealed the gospel to her. Notice it was an "opening," not a "changing," of the heart/spirit/mind. Lydia considered the facts and believed and then was regenerated and saved simultaneously.

I believe, TC, that you are closer than ever to a scriptural understanding of salvation. Don't blow it. :laugh:

skypair

Skypair, I'm a calvinist.

 

[EdSutton]

Skypair, I'm a calvinist.

So I'll pray for you.

(Just couldn't pass on another all too easy opening.) :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[TCGreek]

So I'll pray for you.

(Just couldn't pass on another all too easy opening.) :laugh:

Ed

Ed, I got to you remember that you're on BB. :laugh:

 

[Rippon]

Ed, I got to you remember that you're on BB. :laugh:

You speak cryptically TCG.

 

[TCGreek]

You speak cryptically TCG.

Rippon,

It should be: "I got to remember that you're on BB."

 

[AresMan]

"Opening" = "persuasion," Ares. As Lydia listened, her spirit (intellect, emotions, and will) compared it to what she had been teaching in her "Bible Study by the River" and slowly, it began to make sense.

Another good word might be "illumination." The Spirit sheds light the Father and the Son. That's His job. He doesn't have to indwell in order to do that. He "almost persuaded" Herrod and Paul said, "I would that thou were not just almost but entirely persuaded!" Herod's "heart's" intellect and emotions were "open" but his "will" was holding back.

And you know, yourself, that this is the true salvation paradigm. "Entirely persuaded" would have been to repent to Christ and receive the Holy Spirit as a result, not beforehand.

skypair

Huh? Doesn't the word persuaded mean that the "influence" succeeded? The denotation of persuade is not an attempt, but rather indicates the successful effect of an action.

Here's persuade from dictionary.com:

1.to prevail on (a person) to do something, as by advising or urging: We could not persuade him to wait. 2.to induce to believe by appealing to reason or understanding; convince: to persuade the judge of the prisoner's innocence.

If the object does not react according to the intent of the action of the subject, the object is not persuaded. Felix said "almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian." By definition, if Felix were persuaded, he would then be a Christian.

Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended [προσεχειν] unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Her action of attending is in the present active middle or passive deponent, indicating that, although the action is being performed by her, it is also being done to her. It is also effectual of the opening of her heart.

No matter how you slice it, I don't see how this verse can show that the Holy Spirit of Almighty God, was doing anything in a mere attempt with the possibility of failure to get her to respond affirmatively to Paul's message.

 

[TCGreek]

Ares Man, just a suggestion on the Greek προσεχειν. I think it's actually a present active infinitive.

 

[AresMan]

Ares Man, just a suggestion on the Greek προσεχειν. I think it's actually a present active infinitive.

Well, I did look it up here. An infinitive would definitely still prove my point because it would yet function as an adverb for διηνοιξεν, where διηνοιξεν is the cause and προσεχειν is the effect.

 

[skypair]

If the object does not react according to the intent of the action of the subject, the object is not persuaded. Felix said "almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian." By definition, if Felix were persuaded, he would then be a Christian

Agreed -- which is why I used the term "persuasion." Persuasion doesn't work all the time.

Her action of attending is in the present active middle or passive deponent, indicating that, although the action is being performed by her, it is also being done to her. It is also effectual of the opening of her heart.

I'm gonna leave the "linguistic parsing" to you, man. My experience is that no word stands alone but is used in a context. The contextual comparison you seem to be making is to Rev 3:20 EXCEPT the Spirit of Christ both knocks AND OPENS the door and lets Himself in. Such an argument has no merit scripturally.

No matter how you slice it, I don't see how this verse can show that the Holy Spirit of Almighty God, was doing anything in a mere attempt with the possibility of failure to get her to respond affirmatively to Paul's message.

Then look to Rom 1:19-21. There we see God showing man His eternal power and godhead in a similar effort as the Spirit does in trying to "open" the heart.

And not inconsequential to the discussion -- what is the "heart," IYO? What is the Holy Spirit and God trying to "open." I know you have heard the phrase before so "spit it out." :laugh: They are trying to "open your MIND" to a consideration of God! And as we both know, just having a knowledge of God does NOT save. He's got to be on the "throne" of your life in your SOUL and YOU must put Him there in place of SELF.

So do you see where you are going with this Lydia thing? The Holy Spirit opens her mind and "effectually" gives her a knowledge of God but so what? I am convinced that, for most Calvinists, that's it -- "head knowledge" = "election" even though the SOUL is left untouched by the Spirit and by their own spirit and is still "dead" because of sin. It's like the demons in Jas 2:19 -- they believe and tremble but, in their case, they can't do anything about it. Sadly, most Calvies are taught by their theology that they can't (choose God because it is He Who chooses) or shouldn't (that'd be "easy believism") do anything about it.

Now many Calvies (everyone here, I'm sure ) later come to the realization that their belief isn't really "faith" -- "proven" because it's without "substance" or "evidence" (Heb 11:1) -- and they decide to repent from their own wisdom and ways to God in a simple prayer of commitment through Christ. Then they are "regenerated" receiving the Holy Spirit indwelling. Some are even baptized and/or make a "good profession before many witnesses" as Timothy did (1Tim 6:12) thus "confessing with their mouths" what they "believed in their hearts," Rom 10:9-10 (and not professing the Calvinist gospel of "monergistic election," passive on our parts). It's just common obedience to do these things.

I know. Ten guys are gonna come out of the woodwork and claim again that I don't understand "black ink on white paper" what has been written and said about Calvinism or its terminology. Ah, well.

skypair