Regeneration apart from Christ

[JamesL]

I'd like to see input from both sides. In a discussion group, there was an Arminian who laid a charge that "Calvinists teach regeneration apart from Christ"

So I ask the Arminians here - is this how you characterize the teaching that regeneration precedes faith?

And I ask the Calvinists here - do you think this characterization is accurate?

 

[The Biblicist]

I'd like to see input from both sides. In a discussion group, there was an Arminian who laid a charge that "Calvinists teach regeneration apart from Christ"

So I ask the Arminians here - is this how you characterize the teaching that regeneration precedes faith?

And I ask the Calvinists here - do you think this characterization is accurate?

I believe regeneration and conversion are inseparable sides of one coin just as repentance and faith are inseparable sides of one coin. There is no Chronological distinction but only a logical distinction of cause versus effect.

In the creative act of regenration faith is produced just as God spoke light into existence in Genesis 1:3 so also God speaks "the light of knowledge" into existence within the heart and it is this "light of knowledge" that is both the "substance" and the "hope" of saving faith (2 Cor. 4:6). Thus faith cometh by the creative "word" (Rhema - word of command) of God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

A key text here is Acts 16:14. The Lord opened Lydia's heart, not so that she could be saved without trusting in Christ, but so that she might trust in Christ and be saved (cf. John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

 

[Yeshua1]

A key text here is Acts 16:14. The Lord opened Lydia's heart, not so that she could be saved without trusting in Christ, but so that she might trust in Christ and be saved (cf. John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

Also, as all were appointed unto eternal life received....

 

[JamesL]

I believe regeneration and conversion are inseparable sides of one coin just as repentance and faith are inseparable sides of one coin. There is no Chronological distinction but only a logical distinction of cause versus effect.

In the creative act of regenration faith is produced just as God spoke light into existence in Genesis 1:3 so also God speaks "the light of knowledge" into existence within the heart and it is this "light of knowledge" that is both the "substance" and the "hope" of saving faith (2 Cor. 4:6). Thus faith cometh by the creative "word" (Rhema - word of command) of God.

What do you think about the phrase "Regeneration apart from Christ" ?

Do you think that's an accurate assessment, or a false charge?

 

[Yeshua1]

What do you think about the phrase "Regeneration apart from Christ" ?

Do you think that's an accurate assessment, or a false charge?

Not possible, is it?

 

[JamesL]

Not possible, is it?

There are some who believe it's possible. If I'm not mistaken, KyRedneck makes a distinction between eternal salvation and gospel salvation, and that the first can happen without the second.

I could be slightly off in that, and am open to correction on that matter. But I've seen him take shots from others here for his views

 

[JamesL]

Not possible, is it?

Considering the Ordo Salutis of Protestant soteriology, and that it is taught as inevitable that one who has been quickened shall certainly trust in Christ, what so you think about the charge that regeneration is "apart from Christ" ?

 

[Yeshua1]

Considering the Ordo Salutis of Protestant soteriology, and that it is taught as inevitable that one who has been quickened shall certainly trust in Christ, what so you think about the charge that regeneration is "apart from Christ" ?

All that happens in getting a sinner saved is directly due to the work of Christ, and the working of the Holt Spirit!

 

[tyndale1946]

Considering the Ordo Salutis of Protestant soteriology, and that it is taught as inevitable that one who has been quickened shall certainly trust in Christ, what so you think about the charge that regeneration is "apart from Christ" ?

Okay I'll bite James lets look at that and see... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[JamesL]

Okay I'll bite James lets look at that and see... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I agree with those scriptures, for sure.

What I'm more concerned with is the phrase "apart from Christ"

It was concluded by an Arminian that regeneration preceding faith = salvation apart from Christ

I've never heard it characterized that way, and am curious how both sides would judge that charge.

Would Calvinists accept that as an accurate way to express it?

I'd really like to hear from Arminian-leaning brothers, too. Is this how Arminians understand it?

 

[MennoSota]

It's likely that Arminians don't understand it at all. [emoji41] [emoji57]

 

[The Biblicist]

What do you think about the phrase "Regeneration apart from Christ" ?

Do you think that's an accurate assessment, or a false charge?

It is not possible for regeneration occur "apart from Christ." Regeneration is being "created in Christ" (Eph. 2:10). If you follow the train of thought from Ephesians 2:1-10 this is made clear. In verse 1 the term "quickened" is introduced. It is repeated in verse 5 but with a parenthetical explanation where by it is further explained by the word "saved." In verse 8 the term "saved" is used again as in verse 5 and then the rest of verses 8-9 is a denial of human origin in this "saved" completed action but a divine work, a creative work of God being "created in Christ."

Moreover, there is no other salvation or any other possible salvation apart from Christ as before the cross there is no other way to the Father but by Christ (Jn. 14:6). The "works" of redemption were finished from the foundation of the world (Heb. 4:3-4) and the lamb had been slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8) as the "blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" was completed with regard to purpose and thus regeneration and all other aspects of personal salvation were applied by faith in that promise.

 

[The Biblicist]

Ephesians 2:8 uses the perfect tense completed action verb demonstrating the action was completed at a point in the past and continues in that completed state. That completed action is quickening "through faith" thus faith took place in the same completed action. Indeed, God spoke faith into existence within the human heart by the very act of quickening. This is Paul's point in 2 Cor. 4:6 whereby he draws from Genesis 1:3 when God spoke light into darkness, thus God empowers the gospel word making it his creative word whereby he speaks into existence "in the heart" the "knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" - meaning by divine fiat the gospel becomes his creative word to speak into existence the metaphorical "light" of "knowledge" which forms the "substance" of gospel faith as well as the "hope" of gospel faith as that word which we are "created in Christ" is the very gospel word about Christ ("in the face of Christ" or revelation of Christ as presented in the gospel).

The human preacher can only bring it to the external ear. The holy Spirit then energizes it as His creative word from the external ear inward.

 

[The Biblicist]

The new birth when reduced to the simplest meaning, is simply God giving a new want to within man - creating a new moral inclination within the heart! When God creates a new moral inclination within the heart, faith in Christ is simply the manifestation of that new want to.

 

[tyndale1946]

I agree with those scriptures, for sure.

What I'm more concerned with is the phrase "apart from Christ"

It was concluded by an Arminian that regeneration preceding faith = salvation apart from Christ

I've never heard it characterized that way, and am curious how both sides would judge that charge.

Would Calvinists accept that as an accurate way to express it?

I'd really like to hear from Arminian-leaning brothers, too. Is this how Arminians understand it?

I am glad that you agree with the scriptures I posted James because if you read between the line what I was saying is there nothing apart from Christ... And Biblicist beat me to it and said what I would have said too... He's just younger and faster than I am... Brother Glen

 

[The Biblicist]

Considering the Ordo Salutis of Protestant soteriology, and that it is taught as inevitable that one who has been quickened shall certainly trust in Christ, what so you think about the charge that regeneration is "apart from Christ" ?

What God purposes in his eternal covenant must and does come to pass in time (Isa. 46:9-10). We were never regenerated in eternity past. In eternity past we were eternally purposed to be regenerated in time and space. We are chosen "in him" from the beginning but we are "created in Christ' in time and in space.

 

[percho]

Ordo Salutis

Makes me want to ask.

What had to take place in order, for there to be, an order of salvation?

IMHO the order of salvation was.
Jesus becoming obedient unto death, death even of the cross
But God raised him from the dead. Or as Phil 2:9 states it; Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Wherefore, because of, the obedience.

Because of the obedience of faith and the grace of God in raising him from the dead, we are, Eph 2:8 ones-HAVING-been-SAVED
vp Perf Pas Nom Pl m ----- That and that alone is why we have been saved, Nothing of us, IMHO

1 Cor 15:3,17 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. = Ordo Salutis

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

 

[rlvaughn]

There are some who believe it's possible. If I'm not mistaken, KyRedneck makes a distinction between eternal salvation and gospel salvation, and that the first can happen without the second.

I could be slightly off in that, and am open to correction on that matter. But I've seen him take shots from others here for his views

I can't speak for Kyredneck, but it is the theology of most Old Line Primitive Baptists that eternal salvation and gospel salvation are distinct, and the first can be true without the second ever happening in time (called "conditional time salvation"). That said, I don't think they would say that this eternal salvation in any way occurs "apart from Christ".

 

[The Biblicist]

I can't speak for Kyredneck, but it is the theology of most Old Line Primitive Baptists that eternal salvation and gospel salvation are distinct, and the first can be true without the second ever happening in time (called "conditional time salvation"). That said, I don't think they would say that this eternal salvation in any way occurs "apart from Christ".

Yes, that is precisely what Old Line Primitive Baptists believe simply because they do not understand the scriptures. Ephesians 2:8 repudiates their theory completely. "are ye saved" represents a periphrastic construct in the Greek text or two verbs. The first is a perfect tense verb and the second is a present tense verb. The idea is that quickening (which is what the term "saved" has been previously defined in verse 5) was a completed action in the past which continues as a completed action right into the present. This completed action was "through faith" demonstrating that the completed action of quickening was inclusive of faith. Hence, gospel faith in Christ is inseparable from quickening and that it is further described as having been "created in Christ" in verse 10. This is confirmed again in 2 Cor. 4:6 where this same creative act is the creation saving faith in the heart. So it is impossible to be regenerated at one point in time and then come to saving faith in another point in time as quickening is the creation of saving faith in the heart.