Regeneration Before Faith

[Iconoclast]

Sixth, the gift of saving faith (Eph. 2:4–10). Conversion, or repentance
from sin and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, is inseparable from regeneration.
Conversion is the infallible and immediate consequence of the work of the
Holy Spirit upon and within the personality (Acts 16:14). The Scriptures
usually consider regeneration and conversion inclusively as one. It is
conversion, pointedly personal faith in the Lord Jesus and repentance from
sin, which necessarily and infallibly expresses the work of God within the
personality (Acts 13:12, 48; 14:1; 16:14, 27–34; 17:4, 11–12, 34; 18:8, 27;
19:18; Rom. 10:9–10, 13, 17; 1 Cor. 2:4–5; Eph. 2:4–10). See Questions 86–
88.
The necessity of regeneration or the new birth is found in the utter
spiritual impotence of man, the blinding power of the devil, the eternal
redemptive purpose, and the righteous character and omnipotence of God. If
any human being is to be saved or delivered from the reigning power of sin,
his own innate animosity toward God, the blinding power of Satan, and
ultimately delivered from eternal hell, God must initiate the work of salvation
(Isa. 64:6; Matt. 13:3–4, 18–19; Acts 16:14; Rom. 1:18–25; 3:11, 27–21; 8:5–
8; 1 Cor. 2:14; 2 Cor. 4:3–6; Eph. 2:1–10; 4:17–19; Titus 3:5; 1 Jn. 5:19). To
say all this is to declare that salvation is by grace.
Because of the mystery of this Divine operation, the inability of our finite
minds to fully comprehend it, and the great possibility of misunderstanding its
nature, God has been pleased to represent regeneration in human terms, using
figures or metaphors to aid our understanding. Regeneration is described as a
“spiritual birth.” This is the most common designation. Cf. Jn. 1:12–13; 3:3,
5–8; Jas. 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23; 1 Jn. 3:9. As a “birth,” it is mysterious and
miraculous, and so couched in figurative terms. Regeneration is described as a
“quickening” to spiritual life. Regeneration is described as a “heart
transplant.” The Old Testament language of Jer. 31:31–34; Ezk. 11:19–20;
36:25–27, as fulfilled in 2 Cor. 3 and Heb. 8, although couched in Old
Testament symbolic terms, anticipates the New or Gospel Covenant.
157
Regeneration is described as a “translation” from one kingdom to another.
Believers have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness [evil] into the
kingdom of the Son of God’s love (Col. 1:12–13). Regeneration is described
as a “washing.” This “washing” (Titus 3:5) cannot refer to baptism, for this is
a ritual within the realm and scope of human activity and power. Further,
baptism cannot spiritually quicken or cleanse (1 Pet. 3:18–21). This must be
understood symbolically and according to the analogy of faith (Ezk. 36:25–
27).
Regeneration is further described as a “renewing of the Holy Ghost.” This
language is inherent in the language of regeneration (Titus 3:5). It refers to the
restoration of the image of God in man (Col. 3:9–10; Eph. 4:22–24), the
“heart of flesh” (Ezk. 36:25–27), the “new man,” or regenerate personality
(Rom. 6:6). Regeneration is described as a “change of nature” or “character”
(2 Pet. 1:4; Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:9–10). These passages refer to the moral
transformation of the personality or the restoration of the image of God in
principle in man. Regeneration is described as a “new creation” (Eph. 2:4–10;
2 Cor. 5:17; 4:3–6). The new life, nature or entity imparted by God is the
creation of the “new man” who corresponds in principle to the moral
character of God.
Finally, regeneration is described as a spiritual “circumcision.” Cf. Deut.
10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:26; Acts 7:51–53 with Rom. 2:28–29; Phil. 3:1–3; Col.
2:10–13. The antitype of circumcision is regeneration. Those in the Old
Covenant were circumcised; those in the New Covenant are regenerated.
Regeneration is thus the covenant–sign or seal of the New or Gospel
covenant. Regeneration, as the antitype of circumcision, is a heart–operation
performed by God alone [“a circumcision made without hands”] in taking
away the preeminence of the flesh, i.e., breaking the reigning power of sin.
Cf. Rom. 6:1–14. See Question 157.
Who or what is the efficient cause of regeneration? The two areas of
theological tension are: first, that one must be spiritually quickened, the mind
and heart must be freed from satanic blindness, the mind–set must be restored,
the natural enmity removed, and the reigning power of sin must be broken
before the sinner can truly understand, believe and savingly respond to the
gospel. Second, the Scriptures imply that the preached Word is instrumental
in the work of regeneration and specifically as to saving faith. We must never
confuse the logical order with a chronological order. What can be consistently
and safely stated is that regeneration occurs in the context of the hearing and
comprehending of the truth of God, and not apart from it (Matt. 28:18–20;
Mk. 16:15; Lk. 24:44; Rom. 10:13–15, 17; 1 Cor. 2:1–5; Eph. 1:3–14; 1
Thess. 1:4–5; 2:13; 2 Thess. 2:13–14). As God has ordained the end—the
salvation of sinners––so he has ordained the means to that end—their
awakening [a saving conviction of sin], renewal [regeneration] and
conversion [repentance and faith] through the preaching of the gospel. Are
you a regenerate person? Do you exemplify the marks of converting grace?

 

[Iconoclast]

Adam, if you enjoy this response I strongly recommend you purchase this book....it comes to 18 dollars and change after shipping, but it is the best 18 dollars you will spend this year,,,you can download a pdf copy for 5 dollars from the same web site.

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/a-baptist-catechism-with-commentary/6135589

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn 1:47

Amazing. No guile in this man; and that BEFORE he even met Christ.

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

 

[kyredneck]

.... is there a difference between stating the desire to repent and trust, and stating that one actually repents and trusts Christ?

Can one have the desire to repent and trust and not actually do it?

And, cannot such a desire spring from a regenerated heart?

Can a carnally-minded man be subject to the law of God (Ro 8:7-8)? Paul says no.

'Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?'

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me clarify aprevious post, where I asked "Can such a desire spring from a regenerated heart?"

I meant to ask, "can such a desire spring from an UNregenerate heart?" To that, I think Paul answered no.

One may come under conviction, yet still refuse to repent and trust. That conviction may spring from a desire to escape hell, but not from a desire to trust Christ as savior.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I certainly agree with you and well said. I do not believe there is such a person as an unregenerated believer or a regenerated unbeliever. There is also a difference between eternal life by regeneration and eternal life by justification. The former is imparted while the latter is imputed. The former is by birth (teknia) while the latter is by position (huios). logically imparted life through regeneration precedes imputed life by justification but I personally do not believe there is any time lapse between them but regeneration is completed in conversion.

I think that periods of conviction over sin are the results of worldly sorrow (2 Cor. 7:10) where the natural convicting power of the Word prick the conscience and which always ends in death (Judas) or hardened conscience or that person is quickened by the Spirit of God and repentance unto (judicial) life is produced.

Sixth, the gift of saving faith (Eph. 2:4–10). Conversion, or repentance
from sin and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, is inseparable from regeneration.
Conversion is the infallible and immediate consequence of the work of the
Holy Spirit upon and within the personality (Acts 16:14). The Scriptures
usually consider regeneration and conversion inclusively as one. It is
conversion, pointedly personal faith in the Lord Jesus and repentance from
sin, which necessarily and infallibly expresses the work of God within the
personality (Acts 13:12, 48; 14:1; 16:14, 27–34; 17:4, 11–12, 34; 18:8, 27;
19:18; Rom. 10:9–10, 13, 17; 1 Cor. 2:4–5; Eph. 2:4–10). See Questions 86–
88.
The necessity of regeneration or the new birth is found in the utter
spiritual impotence of man, the blinding power of the devil, the eternal
redemptive purpose, and the righteous character and omnipotence of God. If
any human being is to be saved or delivered from the reigning power of sin,
his own innate animosity toward God, the blinding power of Satan, and
ultimately delivered from eternal hell, God must initiate the work of salvation
(Isa. 64:6; Matt. 13:3–4, 18–19; Acts 16:14; Rom. 1:18–25; 3:11, 27–21; 8:5–
8; 1 Cor. 2:14; 2 Cor. 4:3–6; Eph. 2:1–10; 4:17–19; Titus 3:5; 1 Jn. 5:19). To
say all this is to declare that salvation is by grace.
Because of the mystery of this Divine operation, the inability of our finite
minds to fully comprehend it, and the great possibility of misunderstanding its
nature, God has been pleased to represent regeneration in human terms, using
figures or metaphors to aid our understanding. Regeneration is described as a
“spiritual birth.” This is the most common designation. Cf. Jn. 1:12–13; 3:3,
5–8; Jas. 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23; 1 Jn. 3:9. As a “birth,” it is mysterious and
miraculous, and so couched in figurative terms. Regeneration is described as a
“quickening” to spiritual life. Regeneration is described as a “heart
transplant.” The Old Testament language of Jer. 31:31–34; Ezk. 11:19–20;
36:25–27, as fulfilled in 2 Cor. 3 and Heb. 8, although couched in Old
Testament symbolic terms, anticipates the New or Gospel Covenant.
157
Regeneration is described as a “translation” from one kingdom to another.
Believers have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness [evil] into the
kingdom of the Son of God’s love (Col. 1:12–13). Regeneration is described
as a “washing.” This “washing” (Titus 3:5) cannot refer to baptism, for this is
a ritual within the realm and scope of human activity and power. Further,
baptism cannot spiritually quicken or cleanse (1 Pet. 3:18–21). This must be
understood symbolically and according to the analogy of faith (Ezk. 36:25–
27).
Regeneration is further described as a “renewing of the Holy Ghost.” This
language is inherent in the language of regeneration (Titus 3:5). It refers to the
restoration of the image of God in man (Col. 3:9–10; Eph. 4:22–24), the
“heart of flesh” (Ezk. 36:25–27), the “new man,” or regenerate personality
(Rom. 6:6). Regeneration is described as a “change of nature” or “character”
(2 Pet. 1:4; Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:9–10). These passages refer to the moral
transformation of the personality or the restoration of the image of God in
principle in man. Regeneration is described as a “new creation” (Eph. 2:4–10;
2 Cor. 5:17; 4:3–6). The new life, nature or entity imparted by God is the
creation of the “new man” who corresponds in principle to the moral
character of God.
Finally, regeneration is described as a spiritual “circumcision.” Cf. Deut.
10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:26; Acts 7:51–53 with Rom. 2:28–29; Phil. 3:1–3; Col.
2:10–13. The antitype of circumcision is regeneration. Those in the Old
Covenant were circumcised; those in the New Covenant are regenerated.
Regeneration is thus the covenant–sign or seal of the New or Gospel
covenant. Regeneration, as the antitype of circumcision, is a heart–operation
performed by God alone [“a circumcision made without hands”] in taking
away the preeminence of the flesh, i.e., breaking the reigning power of sin.
Cf. Rom. 6:1–14. See Question 157.
Who or what is the efficient cause of regeneration? The two areas of
theological tension are: first, that one must be spiritually quickened, the mind
and heart must be freed from satanic blindness, the mind–set must be restored,
the natural enmity removed, and the reigning power of sin must be broken
before the sinner can truly understand, believe and savingly respond to the
gospel. Second, the Scriptures imply that the preached Word is instrumental
in the work of regeneration and specifically as to saving faith. We must never
confuse the logical order with a chronological order. What can be consistently
and safely stated is that regeneration occurs in the context of the hearing and
comprehending of the truth of God, and not apart from it (Matt. 28:18–20;
Mk. 16:15; Lk. 24:44; Rom. 10:13–15, 17; 1 Cor. 2:1–5; Eph. 1:3–14; 1
Thess. 1:4–5; 2:13; 2 Thess. 2:13–14). As God has ordained the end—the
salvation of sinners––so he has ordained the means to that end—their
awakening [a saving conviction of sin], renewal [regeneration] and
conversion [repentance and faith] through the preaching of the gospel. Are
you a regenerate person? Do you exemplify the marks of converting grace?

 

[kyredneck]

[emphasis mine]

Historic Baptists and Regeneration
http://www.founders.org/journal/fj02/article2.html

Q. 32. How are we made partakers of the redemption obtained by Christ?

A. We are made partakers of the redemption obtained by Christ, by the effectual application of it to us [o], by His Holy Spirit [p].

o. Galatians 4:5
p. Titus 3:5-6

Q. 33. How doth the Spirit apply to us the redemption obtained by Christ?

A. The Spirit applieth to us the redemption obtained by Christ, by working faith in us [q], and thereby uniting us to Christ [r], in our effectual calling .

q. Ephesians 2:8
r. Ephesians 3:17
s. I Corinthians 1:9

Q. 34. What is effectual calling?

A. Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit [t], whereby convincing us of our sin and misery [w], enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ [x], and renewing our wills [y], he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, revealed as the free gift of God to us, in the gospel [z].

t. II Timothy 1:9
u. John 16:8
w. Acts 2:37
x. Acts 26:18
y. Ezekiel 36:26
z. John 6:44-45

These brethren were followed by a great host of Southern Baptist statesmen who agreed wholeheartedly with the above statements concerning the nature of the new birth. A few excerpts will have to suffice.

James P. Boyce (first president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky): "It is not strange, therefore, that they [i.e. regeneration and conversion] are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is that act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart" (Abstract of Systematic Theology, p. 374).

John A. Broadus (distinguished professor of New Testament and successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary): "1. Q. What is meant by the word regeneration? A. Regeneration is God's causing a person to be born again. 9. Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No, it is the new heart that truly repents and believes" (taken from Broadus' A Catechism of Bible Teaching, reprinted in A Baptist Treasury, pp. 67-68).

John L. Dagg (first writing Southern Baptist theologian; president of Mercer University in Georgia): "In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. . . . But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences" (A Manual of Theology, pp. 277, 279).

B. H. Carroll (founder and first president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas): "The true scriptural position [concerning regeneration] is this: There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. Yet even his contrition is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance and faith are but responses to the antecedent spiritual graces of repentance and faith." Carroll goes on to state that "repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration" (An Interpretation of the English Bible, Volume 4, p. 287).

J. B. Tidwell (professor of Bible at Baylor University in Waco, Texas): "Regeneration is a change of the soul's affections from self to God--an act of God by which the governing disposition of the soul which was formerly sinful becomes holy, 2 Cor. 2:17--this making us new creatures." (Christian Teachings, p. 54)

W. T. Conner (professor of Systematic Theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary): "This change [i.e., regeneration] is one that is wrought in the moral nature of man by the Spirit of God. Nothing but divine power could produce the change. . . . God's power works this change. . . . The man who experiences regeneration knows as well as he knows daylight from darkness that he himself did not work the change." (The Gospel of Redemption, p. 189)

Many more could be added to this sampling of Southern Baptist worthies who have taught in times past on this subject with Biblical faithfulness and crystal clarity. Though dead, truly they yet speak.

Contemporary Baptist Statements
One might be led to believe that the excerpts cited above reflect the beliefs held only by Baptists of days gone by, and that beliefs such as these went into their tombs with them. Such is not the case, however. In Southern Baptist life today two documents hold a high place of prominence: The Abstract of Principles and The Baptist Faith and Message. The Abstract serves today as the guiding doctrinal statement at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, and the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, North Carolina. Every professor who teaches at these institutions must sign with a clear conscience The Abstract of Principles, agreeing to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, its doctrinal precepts. As recently as October 4, 1984, the entire faculty of Southern Seminary unanimously reaffirmed The Abstract. Among other wonderful Biblical truths, The Abstract teaches the following on regeneration:

"Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love God and practice holiness. It is a work of God's free and special grace alone."

The Baptist Faith and Message is a statement of faith adapted from the New Hampshire Confession of Faith. The Baptist Faith and Message has been vigorously reaffirmed by messengers to recent meetings of the Southern Baptist Convention, and presently serves as the confession of faith of very many local churches in the Southern Baptist denomination. In addition to this, it is the guiding document concerning doctrinal matters (subservient to the Bible, of course) for several Southern Baptist institutions and agencies. The article on regeneration reads as follows:

"Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."

Conclusion
The truth concerning the Bible doctrine of regeneration is the same today as it was when God the Holy Spirit taught it to the inspired writers of Holy Scriptures, and as it was understood by our Baptist forefathers who labored to the glory of God in the name of Jesus Christ within the confines of the Southern Baptist denomination. But then, that should not surprise us, because truth does not change. If the rank and file of Southern Baptists today do not embrace and impart the Bible doctrine of regeneration as set forth in this brief survey, then it must be either that they have not been taught or that they refuse to be taught.

Those who have not been taught need to be instructed. We must do all we can to teach this glorious truth to them for two reasons: 1) Their spiritual well-being depends upon a right understanding of this truth. 2) The task of mission and evangelism cannot truly advance apart from a proper understanding of this truth. Those, however, who refuse to be instructed in this way need to be identified as having forsaken the biblical and historic Southern Baptist understanding of this essential doctrine. Whether in the pulpit, the class room, the agency administrative office, or the trustee board room, it must be acknowledged that there has been a violation of doctrinal integrity when men (and/or women) teach an aberration of this vital subject concerning the new birth.

May our gracious God give to us a recovery of the glorious doctrine of regeneration, and may He then be pleased to teach us many divine object lessons by magnifying his grace in the salvation of a multitude of poor sinners.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Paul uses the analogy of creation of light in Genesis 1:3 as the change from internal ignorance that separates us from the life of God (Eph. 4:18) to the knowledge of God through Christ (2 Cor. 4:6). We are a new "creation" (2 Cor. 5:17) or "his workmanship created in Christ Jesus."

 

[MB]

One of the few things I agree with Calvinist on is that Salvation is solely the work of God. It isn't what man does that obtains Salvation. It's what God does. We are first drawn to Him and because of this interest which is a direct cause of the drawing. We listen. As we listen our interest grows and we become convinced of the gospel. This causes conviction on our hearts because we now know we are sinners. The conviction causes us to regret our sins and drives us to our knees in repentance and confession.
The gospel is very much like a seed that is planted in our hearts. If our hearts have been cultivated by the conviction the seed will grow up in our hearts and bear fruit. The first fruit is that we submit to the righteousness of God. Until the fruit we are but possibilities, and can still rebel.
Where I disagree with Calvinist is that we are regenerated before any of this happens. The problem is there is no scripture in the Bible that proves regeneration before faith.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
If grace is through faith, then faith has to be in place first, inorder for grace to come through it. It's simple No Faith, No Grace.
MB

 

[Winman]

Let me clarify aprevious post, where I asked "Can such a desire spring from a regenerated heart?"

I meant to ask, "can such a desire spring from an UNregenerate heart?" To that, I think Paul answered no.

One may come under conviction, yet still refuse to repent and trust. That conviction may spring from a desire to escape hell, but not from a desire to trust Christ as savior.

You are correct, a person may be convicted but reject Christ. This is clearly shown when Stephen preached to the Jews. The word of God had a profound effect on them, it made them angry.

Acts 8:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Now, how can these men resist the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit was not drawing them? If you are not invited to a wedding, can you honestly say you refused the invitation? Of course not, that is ridiculous. So, the very fact that Stephen says they were resisting the Holy Spirit is because the Holy Spirit was drawing them, calling them.

This shows the grace of God is not irresistable. These men stubbornly resisted the Holy Spirit and became angry and hateful toward Stephen.

Acts 8:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

These unregenerate men heard Stephen, and they understood exactly what he was saying. But it made them angry. They did not like to hear that they had never sincerely listened to God and that they had rejected the Christ.

Acts 8:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

I think it is significant that the scriptures say these men cried with a loud voice and stopped their ears. They tried to shout over Stephen so his words could not be heard, and they stopped their ears so they could no longer hear him. They could hear Stephen and they could understand him. So this teaching that an unregenerate man cannot understand the scriptures at all is false. Maybe they cannot understand the deeper things of God, but they can understand basic scripture quite well.

 

[Winman]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
If grace is through faith, then faith has to be in place first, inorder for grace to come through it. It's simple No Faith, No Grace.
MB

You are absolutely correct. If faith is given through grace as some falsely teach, then this verse should read;

For by faith are ye saved through grace; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

If faith is a free gift given to us by God's unmeritied grace, then this is how Ephesians 2:8 should read. It does not.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Steven was describing the unregenerate condition "do always resist" as Paul later describes in Romans 8:7 "neither indeed can be." This is the consistent response to light by all unregenerate persons rather than proof of the Holy Spirit calling them to salvation. This is the general call of the Gospel being rejected and resisted rather than when the gospel comes not "in word only" (1 Thes. 1:5).

Ephesians 2:8 uses the perfect tense verb describing a completed state at a point in the past. This completed state of salvation by grace was in conjunction with faith. This whole completed state is "the gift of God" as well as the "workmanship of God" as a creative act by God that places the elect in union with Christ "created in Christ Jesus." Contextually, this completed action, the gift and creative work of God is previously defined as "being quickened" in verse 5.

When the gospel is preached in "power" (1 Thes. 1:5) it becomes the creative word of God or the command of God whereby LIGHT is produced in a dark unregenerative state (Gen. 1:2-3 with 2 Cor. 4:6) reversing the condition described in Eph. 4:18-19. The metaphorical "light" is knowledge of the Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 4:6) reversing the ignorance that separates this person from the "life of God" (Eph. 4:18). This creative work produces faith as well as provides the object of faith - the gospel. Hence, the creative word - the gospel - produces as well as becomes the object of faith created or as Paul says "from faith to faith" - Rom. 1:17

 

[Winman]

Steven was describing the unregenerate condition "do always resist" as Paul later describes in Romans 8:7 "neither indeed can be." This is the consistent response to light by all unregenerate persons rather than proof of the Holy Spirit calling them to salvation. This is the general call of the Gospel being rejected and resisted rather than when the gospel comes not "in word only" (1 Thes. 1:5).

Baloney, there is no such thing as a "general call" and "effectual call" in all of scripture, that is a man-made doctrine.

How can these men be said to be resisting the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit was not drawing and calling them?

Jesus clearly showed that God calls many men in complete sincerety and that these men wickedly refuse.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

To say that God calls men with a "general call" but does not really intend to draw these persons makes God to be insincere and very misleading. It is nonsense, and a great insult to God who always says exactly what he means and does not mislead people.

 

[kyredneck]

ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5

And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready at the quarry; and there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building. 1 Ki 6:7

 

[kyredneck]

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. Jn 3:14,15

And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21:8

Note that the brazen serpent was lifted up for those that were bitten.

.........They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2:17

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for Him.

Fortunate indeed are those that have been made to feel the serpent's awful sting. Fortunate are those that hunger and thirst after righteousness.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I respectfully disagree. The words "not in word only" in 1 Thes. 1:5 makes no sense unless it could come in "word only." Notice the context. Knowledge of personal election (v. 4) is demonstratable by the gospel coming in "power" rather than in "word only." Hence, there is two different ways the word can come to a person (1) in word only (2) "not in word only."

Second, I Corinthians 1:26-30 is a powerful rebuke to your position and especially the words "not many are called." The calling under consideration is effectual to salvation.

Thirdly, the distinction between the natural ear and the spiritual ear also denies your denial. Look at Deuteronomy 5:29 in comparison with Deuteronomy 29:4:

O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! - Deut. 5:29

Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. - Deut. 29:4

This proves that the natural born man does not come into this world with the ability to "perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear." God must give them. He denies that He has given such a heart to Israel. Such a change of heart is described in this same book as a "circumcised" heart


De 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.


and in Ezekiel 36:26-27 with 2 Cor. 3:3-6 as EFFECTUAL to salvation.


A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. - Ezek. 36:26-27

Therefore, the effectual call is clearly Biblical and is the same thing as circumcision of the heart by God producing seeing eyes and hearing ears effectual to gospel obedience.

You are absolutely correct. If faith is given through grace as some falsely teach, then this verse should read;

For by faith are ye saved through grace; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

If faith is a free gift given to us by God's unmeritied grace, then this is how Ephesians 2:8 should read. It does not.

 

[kyredneck]

You're new here Dr. Walter, but I already like you.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes sir, I am new to the forum but I am not new to the denial of the effectual call. Truth draws lovers of truth. Glad to make your acquaintance.

You're new here Dr. Walter, but I already like you.

 

[jbh28]

Baloney, there is no such thing as a "general call" and "effectual call" in all of scripture, that is a man-made doctrine.

How can these men be said to be resisting the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit was not drawing and calling them?

They are resisting because they have no desire to come to Christ even though God is calling them. Drawing is a different story. No one is resisting once they have been drawn by the Holy Spirit. "Draw" means that they came. All that are drawn are the same as all that came. If one doesn't come, they were not drawn.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/draw

 

[Winman]

They are resisting because they have no desire to come to Christ even though God is calling them. Drawing is a different story. No one is resisting once they have been drawn by the Holy Spirit. "Draw" means that they came. All that are drawn are the same as all that came. If one doesn't come, they were not drawn.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/draw

I am quite aware what drawing is. But if God is not drawing a man, he cannot possibly be resisting.

Let me give you an analogy, fishing. You hook a fish, you are drawing it in. But the fish is resisting, he is fighting. And some fish manage to break the line or jump off the hook.

But a fish that hasn't been hooked cannot be said to be resisting. He is swimming free.

Jesus compared the kingdom of heaven to a king inviting people to his son's wedding. He specifically says that many men were called, they were bidden to the wedding. This was no joke, no insincere offer, these men were expected to come to the wedding. But they did not and so the king was angry and destroyed them.

Now, if the king did not invite them, how could it be said they refused to come? How could it be said they resisted the king's invitation? You can't say that, it would be absolutely ridiculous.

But that is what Calvinism teaches. They teach God calls men, but it is not a real invitation, it is not sincere, God has no intention of these men coming to Christ. That is what you call the "general call"

So, how in the world can these men be resisting? God isn't really calling them, he is not effectually drawing them. They aren't resisting anything as no real influence has been placed on them.

So, this teaching is ridiculous and illogical. You make God to be a very misleading person who says, "come to the wedding" when God does not sincerely mean that and does not really want them to come. And then you say men are resisting when God is not drawing them.

How anybody can deceive themselves to believe illogical doctrine like this is fantastic to say the least. You have to throw your common sense out the window to believe baloney like this.