Regeneration before Salvation and the Holy Spirit

[convicted1]

We know that no one seek after God. So God did choose messengers, prophets through out History filling them with the Holy Spirit to seek them and tell them the truth about God and His message. If they wdidn't go out with out the Holy Spirit they would go out with out any power and no one will be saved and that many that heard through them the Gospel of their salvation having believed was included with them.

It is all to prepare the way for Jesus who will being salvation to the world and whosoever believes in Him will be saved.

God did have to hide the truth from all Israel those that had their own desire with that message and picked a remnant who are meek and humble who will trust in the Lord. Those who will not hinder the message to be spread throughout the whole world and wouldn't hinder the Gentiles coming. God would not have to hide the truth from some if everyone was doing His will.

So because of the messengers chosen to spread a message, because no one seeks after God they believe everyone is chosen that way and no one else being included with those elect that hear the message of their salvation having believed.

I do believe Paul is the last of these and everyone else was included when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

Those of us who believe in Jesus living water will flow from within us to share with the world and whosoever believes in Jesus shall be saved.

So do you think we are made alive to believe, or that when we believe we are then made alive? This post came across "fuzzy" to me, and I am sorry about my poor comprehension skills.

 

[percho]

Brother JF had a similiar thread to which I was the only one who replied. Here is what I posted in that thread:



Now, if regeneration is a whole different step in the salvation process, then someone could be "theorhetically alive" for years, and not known one thing about it. Now, if this could be true, regeneration prior to salvation, then the Word sure doesn't back this up. Neither does it support pre-faith regeneration.


Isaiah 55
1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.


So, in verse three it says to incline your ear and come unto me. Then it says to hear and your soul shall live. Hearing is what brings forth life, not life to bring forth hearing. Here is another verse to support this(I know it gets shown a lot, but it does support my claim):

John 5:24,25
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


So you see, these two small passages show that hearing brings regeneration/salvation, and not vice versa.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

we shall be saved future fully receive your salvation
by his life. The life he had after his death his regeneration
ye which have followed me in the regeneration When it is said he is the firstborn of many brethren (so born) the resurrection

Isaiah 55
1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Your soul shall live. Compare that to what is said here; spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, (Hades the abode of the dead)

the sure mercies of David. What are they relative to? Corruption Acts 13:34
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. See also Acts 2:31 last part also concerns the resurrection: neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jesus both soul and body were resurrected given life from the dead. Just as on the same day this was spoken by Peter of David that he was both (soul and body) dead and buried.

 

[convicted1]

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

we shall be saved future fully receive your salvation
by his life. The life he had after his death his regeneration
ye which have followed me in the regeneration When it is said he is the firstborn of many brethren (so born) the resurrection

Isaiah 55
1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Your soul shall live. Compare that to what is said here; spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, (Hades the abode of the dead)

the sure mercies of David. What are they relative to? Corruption Acts 13:34
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. See also Acts 2:31 last part also concerns the resurrection: neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jesus both soul and body were resurrected given life from the dead. Just as on the same day this was spoken by Peter of David that he was both (soul and body) dead and buried.

Please elaborate on this further. This came off "fuzzy". We were reconciled back to Christ by His death, burial and resurrection, correct. But, are we made alive/hear to believe in Christ, or are we made alive in Christ because we believe/hear? Please expound on this.

 

[psalms109:31]

So do you think we are made alive to believe, or that when we believe we are then made alive? This post came across "fuzzy" to me, and I am sorry about my poor comprehension skills.

I was correcting it trying to make it not fuzzy.
The words of Jesus is the living water, Spirit and they are life. We are born again through the word of life which is Jesus words.

His words set before us life and death not life only, choose Jesus and you will live.

Mark 16:16

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

When we walk away from Jesus we walk away from life.

We live or die because of God and His word and we are responsible by the path we take.

 

[convicted1]

I was correcting it trying to make it not fuzzy.
The words of Jesus is the living water, Spirit and they are life. We are born again through the word of life which is Jesus words.

His words set before us life and death not life only, choose Jesus and you will live.

Mark 16:16

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

When we walk away from Jesus we walk away from life.

We live or die because of God and His word and we are responsible by the path we take.

So then faith DOES come prior to regeneration? Good! :thumbs::thumbs:

 

[percho]

Please elaborate on this further. This came off "fuzzy". We were reconciled back to Christ by His death, burial and resurrection, correct. But, are we made alive/hear to believe in Christ, or are we made alive in Christ because we believe/hear? Please expound on this.

My understanding is we are reconciled back to God the Father by the death of
Jesus the Christ. However there is no life, just the wages have been paid. The blood has been shed for remission but if something else doesn't take place it is for naught or as Paul puts it here, "For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." There has to be resurrection (giving of life) for the shed blood to apply. It is the resurrected life that will give life.

You can only be washed in the blood only if it is followed by life.

Our salvation was accomplished by : the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (of Jesus the Christ) It was Jesus who God the Father raised up (regenerated) and gave the promise of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:32,33

The HS was then shed on us putting us in Christ which, hath begotten (conceived) us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Lively hope, the hope of eternal life that comes by resurrection from the dead, regeneration.

In John 16:7 Jesus says if he does not go away the Holy Spirit will not come for he does not have the HS to give he must receive it from the Father, a promise made for the seed of Abraham by which all the people of the earth can be blessed, see Gal. 3:14. But Jesus at the time he was speaking to the disciples did not have it to give.

John 16:17,20, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

How will there sorrow be turned to joy?
verse 21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

Does this compare his resurrection to a re-birth to being born again?

 

[webdog]

As I said before, John the Baptist is a special case. But he's still every bit a sinner that we are. And, just because it happened to John the Baptist, it doesn't necessarily follow that it happens that way all the time.

HOWEVER, I am asking the question because of those people here who, basically, claim that the Holy Spirit doesn't have a part of anyone until after conversion. John the Baptist--in utero--was filled with the Holy Spirit and he obviously was not a "believer" at that point. My contention is--at least in his case--the filling of the Holy Spirit guaranteed his "belief" rather than his belief bringing the Holy Spirit.

Also, I'm not arguing that he was regenerated as I would argue others (think: Acts) were.

The Archangel

Who here claims the Holy Spirit has no part in someone's life until after conversion? In the 6 years I have been here I've never seen it (pelagianism / semi-P)?

 

[quantumfaith]

Arminian ordo salutis:

Prevenient grace

Faith

[Union with Christ]

Justification

Regeneration

Sanctification

Glorification

Notes on Arminian ordo:

Again, it is important to note that strictly speaking prevenient grace and faith are not part of salvation but are necessary to salvation. Prevenient grace makes the faith response possible and faith is the God ordained condition that must be met before God will save. Faith is synergistic in that it is a genuine response that is made possible by God's enabling grace. All that follows (the various aspects of salvation) are a monergistic work of God. While salvation results from faith, faith does not cause salvation. God causes salvation in response to faith according to His promise to save believers.

There are other aspects or expressions of salvation that are not explicitly included in the above ordo. Adoption, for instance, would probably be included under both regeneration and glorification. Regeneration would include the commencement of adoption while glorification would include the culmination of adoption. Election would be tied to union with Christ. We would become the elect of God upon our union with Christ (the elect One) as we would come to share in His election through union and identification with Him. Faith joins us to Christ (Eph. 1:13) and all of the spiritual blessings that reside in Christ become the believer's upon union with Him (Eph. 1:3-12).

Temporally, these blessings would become ours simultaneously, but logically it is important to place justification prior to regeneration and all that follows, since one must first receive forgiveness and have sin removed prior to the reception of new life and the attaining of holiness (sanctification). One cannot have life while still under the condemnation of sin and the wrath of God for "the wages of sin is death". And one cannot be made holy apart from justification. So the moment we are joined to Christ we are cleansed by His blood and new life and holiness immediately result from that cleansing.

Predestination would have reference to the predetermined destiny of believers through union with Christ. Believers have been predestinated to ultimate adoption and conformity to the image of Christ (glorification). Predestination does not have reference to God's predetermination of certain sinners to become believers and be ultimately saved.

http://evangelicalarminians.org/?q=The-Arminian-and-Calvinist-Ordo Salutis-A-Brief-Comparative-Study

 

[JesusFan]

Arminian ordo salutis:

Prevenient grace

Faith

[Union with Christ]

Justification

Regeneration

Sanctification

Glorification

Notes on Arminian ordo:

Again, it is important to note that strictly speaking prevenient grace and faith are not part of salvation but are necessary to salvation. Prevenient grace makes the faith response possible and faith is the God ordained condition that must be met before God will save. Faith is synergistic in that it is a genuine response that is made possible by God's enabling grace. All that follows (the various aspects of salvation) are a monergistic work of God. While salvation results from faith, faith does not cause salvation. God causes salvation in response to faith according to His promise to save believers.

There are other aspects or expressions of salvation that are not explicitly included in the above ordo. Adoption, for instance, would probably be included under both regeneration and glorification. Regeneration would include the commencement of adoption while glorification would include the culmination of adoption. Election would be tied to union with Christ. We would become the elect of God upon our union with Christ (the elect One) as we would come to share in His election through union and identification with Him. Faith joins us to Christ (Eph. 1:13) and all of the spiritual blessings that reside in Christ become the believer's upon union with Him (Eph. 1:3-12).

Temporally, these blessings would become ours simultaneously, but logically it is important to place justification prior to regeneration and all that follows, since one must first receive forgiveness and have sin removed prior to the reception of new life and the attaining of holiness (sanctification). One cannot have life while still under the condemnation of sin and the wrath of God for "the wages of sin is death". And one cannot be made holy apart from justification. So the moment we are joined to Christ we are cleansed by His blood and new life and holiness immediately result from that cleansing.

Predestination would have reference to the predetermined destiny of believers through union with Christ. Believers have been predestinated to ultimate adoption and conformity to the image of Christ (glorification). Predestination does not have reference to God's predetermination of certain sinners to become believers and be ultimately saved.

http://evangelicalarminians.org/?q=The-Arminian-and-Calvinist-Ordo Salutis-A-Brief-Comparative-Study

Do would the Non cals here on the BB hold to that model?
That as sinners, agree with us that still need to have the work of God to first enable us to actually able to receive jesus and get saved?
We would state that process of enabling sinners by Grace to come to Christ and be saved to ONLY the elect, arms that God provides common grace to all...

Do all Non cals affirm that last part?