Regeneration: Begotten By God

[Robert Snow]

I was adding to your comment (Dr. Bob's ad hom)...not accusing you of anything.

Sorry! I had a senior moment! :wavey:

 

[The Archangel]

I've defended my position quite nicely using the greek. Faith is NOT the gift spoken of in Eph. 2 and cannot be. For the umpteenth time, when the author wants to refer to an entire idea, he will use the neuter in the demonstrative pronoun, hence both grace and faith being feminine should not be referred to or taken individually, but the entire phrase collectively. In addition, there are two greek words for gift used in the NT, one is "dorea" which is on the emphasis of something being free, and the second is "doron" which is referring to something being sacrificial in nature. For your understanding of faith being the gift spoken of, Paul would have used "dorea"...but guess what...he used "doron", which further supports the sacrificial gift of salvation by grace (should be literally translated graciousness or graciously) through faith. My understanding of the gift being the whole of "by grace through faith" is both supported by the gender usage AND the intended meaning of the word for gift which faith does not support, as it was not the sacrifice. This will be the last time I state that to you.

You are creating a fallacy around the difference of these two words. If, and this is a big if, the word δωρον stood alone, maybe you'd have a leg to stand on. However, the thrust of the entire passage is on what God does so, in context, the word means God's giving of a gift. Context is always king.

Further, you like to interpret Ephesians 2:8 as if salvation did not include both grace and faith. If "it" refers to the whole of salvation (which I think it does) it is silly to discount the clear grammatical how--grace and faith. You ignore that grace and faith are two sides of the same coin of salvation. A literal translation of the Greek makes it abundantly clear that salvation, grace, and faith are not out of ourselves.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

You are creating a fallacy around the difference of these two words. If, and this is a big if, the word δωρον stood alone, maybe you'd have a leg to stand on. However, the thrust of the entire passage is on what God does so, in context, the word means God's giving of a gift. Context is always king.

I never denied it was God's sacrifice, and that further supports the whole of "by grace are ye saved through faith" being the gift.

Further, you like to interpret Ephesians 2:8 as if salvation did not include both grace and faith. If "it" refers to the whole of salvation (which I think it does) it is silly to discount the clear grammatical how--grace and faith. You ignore that grace and faith are two sides of the same coin of salvation. A literal translation of the Greek makes it abundantly clear that salvation, grace, and faith are not out of ourselves.

I've done no such thing. Salvation is clearly by God's grace through faith. I disagree that the literal translation of the greek states salvation is by grace AND faith. It's grace THROUGH faith, or literally "God graciously saved you through faith". I've never heard grace and faith are two sides of the same coin before...repentance and faith...but never grace and faith.

 

[OldRegular]

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I don't speak the Greek but the English makes the meaning of Ephesians 2:8 obvious. The Scripture states that Salvation is by Grace or unmerited favor so obviously it is a gift. The Scripture also states that Salvation is through faith. Now if Salvation is a gift then obviously Faith itself is a gift, otherwise the statement that Salvation is by Grace is incorrect. But the Scripture states otherwise: and that [Faith] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[DHK]

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I don't speak the Greek but the English makes the meaning of Ephesians 2:8 obvious. The Scripture states that Salvation is by Grace or unmerited favor so obviously it is a gift. The Scripture also states that Salvation is through faith. Now if Salvation is a gift then obviously Faith itself is a gift, otherwise the statement that Salvation is by Grace is incorrect. But the Scripture states otherwise: and that [Faith] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It (salvation) is the gift of God. That is the assumed subject throughout the entire context. The subject or pronoun (it) of the phrase "gift of God" does not go back to a prepositional phrase which defines the real subject of salvation.

 

[OldRegular]

It (salvation) is the gift of God. That is the assumed subject throughout the entire context. The subject or pronoun (it) of the phrase "gift of God" does not go back to a prepositional phrase which defines the real subject of salvation.

I assume you know what assume means!

 

[DHK]

I assume you know what assume means!

Perhaps I could have used a better word than "assumed", such as "inferred" since the subject isn't directly stated, and "it" has to refer to something. We know that it refers to salvation since that has been the topic of discussion, the subject of the passage all throughout the passage that Paul has been speaking about. It can't refer to anything else.

 

[OldRegular]

Perhaps I could have used a better word than "assumed", such as "inferred" since the subject isn't directly stated, and "it" has to refer to something. We know that it refers to salvation since that has been the topic of discussion, the subject of the passage all throughout the passage that Paul has been speaking about. It can't refer to anything else.

You say We know. Just who is/are WE? Is that the royal WE, the plural we, or just the we we?

Actually the topic of discussion in verses 1-7 has been regeneration!

 

[OldRegular]

I never denied it was God's sacrifice, and that further supports the whole of "by grace are ye saved through faith" being the gift.

Are you finally admitting that Faith is a gift?

 

[DHK]

You say We know. Just who is/are WE? Is that the royal WE, the plural we, or just the we we?

Actually the topic of discussion in verses 1-7 has been regeneration!

You have it right. Regeneration (salvation) is by grace, through faith, and it is the gift of God. You have just proved the non-Cals position perfectly.

 

[webdog]

Are you finally admitting that Faith is a gift?

Do you really have that hard of a time with reading comprehension?

 

[zrs6v4]

correct me if Im wrong, but here are the two most common views of the gift of faith.

1. Non-Cal: Faith is a universal gift that is given by God to everyone and therefore in this sense God gets the glory for the faith in Christ.

2. Cal: Faith in Christ is not a universal gift, but reserved for the elect in Christ specifically for believing in Christ for salvation.

Either view states that faith and grace are parts of salvation, but the difference is to whom these gifts are for.

I personally see faith in Christ as a more personal gift given by God to His elect. I do agree that many people in this world show that by nature they have faith in things, people, or gods. I would further offer that the type of faith needed for salvation is the only true hope (Christ), and this is the gift I believe Paul is speaking of in Eph. 2:8 and Phill 1:29

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Through the words of Jesus faith is given to us by God and through His word whosoever believe will be saved and be the elect of God or you can not believe and be condemned and not be the elect of God. This didn't come from yourself but from the word of God.The young rich ruler was given faith by God through the words of Jesus yet walked away.

 

[OldRegular]

Do you really have that hard of a time with reading comprehension?

Perhaps you are hampered by an inability to express your opinions!

 

[OldRegular]

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Through the words of Jesus faith is given to us by God and through His word whosoever believe will be saved and be the elect of God or you can not believe and be condemned and not be the elect of God. This didn't come from yourself but from the word of God.The young rich ruler was given faith by God through the words of Jesus yet walked away.

Where does it say that the rich young ruler was given faith?

 

[psalms109:31]

Given Faith

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

 

[OldRegular]

correct me if Im wrong, but here are the two most common views of the gift of faith.

1. Non-Cal: Faith is a universal gift that is given by God to everyone and therefore in this sense God gets the glory for the faith in Christ.

2. Cal: Faith in Christ is not a universal gift, but reserved for the elect in Christ specifically for believing in Christ for salvation.

Either view states that faith and grace are parts of salvation, but the difference is to whom these gifts are for.

I personally see faith in Christ as a more personal gift given by God to His elect. I do agree that many people in this world show that by nature they have faith in things, people, or gods. I would further offer that the type of faith needed for salvation is the only true hope (Christ), and this is the gift I believe Paul is speaking of in Eph. 2:8 and Phill 1:29

Actually the Pelagians, semi-Pelagians, Arminians, and other assorted non Cals, whom I call Freewillers, believe that Faith is inherent in human nature. They declare, sometimes viciously, that the Faith that enables them to accept GOD's gracious offer of Salvation is identical to the Faith that their car will start when they turn the key. :tongue3::smilewinkgrin::tongue3::smilewinkgrin:

 

[OldRegular]

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

I still did not see anything about the rich young ruler having faith!

 

[webdog]

Perhaps you are hampered by an inability to express your opinions!

I doubt it. What part of "the whole of...by grace through faith" was hard to comprehend?

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith

Faith is the word of Jesus as the scripture says, and that is faith that God is given man just as the scripture says.

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.