Regeneration: Is it a prelude to OR the Act of Salvation ~Born Again~

[TCGreek]

Nothing different. It is seen the same way.

It could be redered like this :
Beloved,... let Every person who is [currently CONTINUING in] love for one another has been Fathered [into birth] of God.
This verse still (like 1 John 5:1) reveals both actions stemming from a past point, therefore it is about a state of being and NOT about chronology, just as it is with 1 John 5:1. It is not about those who are just now loving one another (since love is in the Present Active Participle) showing they were already born of God but that it establishes those who are currently loving one another to be definitively in the Family of God - born.

It can be paraphrase this way as well :
Those who are Fathered (born) of God are known because of their continuing love for the brethren.

Then being Fathered of God precedes their love. So what is the difference at 5:1?

 

[Allan]

Then being Fathered of God precedes their love. So what is the difference at 5:1?

There is no difference because it isn't about chronology. Simply a present state of being resulting from a past act. That past act is faith by which they were born of God.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

Whatever is born of God overcomes the world
AND THIS IS THE VICTORY THAT OVERCOMES THE WORLD
Being Born of God? or "OUR FAITH"?

They are equated as the same thing because they refer to the same time.
However, the very next verse asks who is he that overcomes the world but he that believes. Why not state He that is born of God since being born overcomes the world and it should 'potentially' precede faith. And yet scripture stays with faith as the victory which overcomes the world.

IF I was to look for a similtude of chronology I would see it here, but it still is not specifying chronology but a state of being.

 

[TCGreek]

There is no difference because it isn't about chronology. Simply a present state of being resulting from a past act. That past act is faith by which they were born of God.

It is not about chronology, yet you cannot avoid chronological arguments to support your view: "That past act is faith by which they were born of God."

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

1. And what do you make of the use of the perfect tense in 1 Cor 15:4?

2. How can you divorce a prior, completed historical act from the perfect and only concentrate on its present realities?

I will respond in reverse order:

2. To use to word "divorce" in describing the present force and its relationship to the past complete action is to misunderstand the nature of its distinction. Nothing is being divorced. This is the nature of its use. Not exclusively but much of the time and is so here, hence why it is translated "is born", the emphasis being on the present reality of a completed past action.

This is simply a grammar rule and reality of the Greek perfect and surely you know this. There is a present force employed. It isn't my grammar rule I made up.


Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God

1. As for 1 Cor 5:14

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I need more information regarding what you are asking about "rose", its significance and the perfect tense.

 

[Allan]

It is not about chronology, yet you cannot avoid chronological arguments to support your view: "That past act is faith by which they were born of God."

I agree that a chronological argument can be made with 1 John 5:4 (but I'm not trying to). But those texts WE were discussing concerns the verses with the Perfect tense. These verses can not be used to state or specifically define an order because that is not the intent of Perfect tense here.

Simply put the past act of faith is that which is equated WITH being Born. Both are past but not chronologically defined in the Perfect.

 

[skypair]

Regeneration means "born of the Spirit" vs. generation which is "born of the flesh." In addition, regeneration is sanctification vs CONVERSION (turning toward God) which is justification.

Allan, here's where most make a mistake --- they do not detect the difference between belief and faith, hope and sight, conversion and regeneration. Certainly it can be said that "regeneration precedes faith." However, belief, repentance and reception of Christ (AKA "conversion") precedes regeneration.

Guys, this is NOT skypair's opinion --- it's "All the Doctrines of the Bible" by Lockyer. Wake up and smell the coffee!! CONVERSION and then regeneration and faith!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Where do you find "regeneration is sanctification" and "CONVERSION (turning toward God) which is justification".
Scripture makes no such distinction and I know of, plz elaborate.

Regeneration is the "work" that God has begun in us (Phil 1:6) when we receive Christ. It is done by the POWER of the indwelling HS.

Conversion is IMMEDIATE justification -- regeneration is PROGRESSIVE sanctification. We are reBORN as babes growing into the "adults" -- into the "image of His dear Son," Rom 8:29.

This verse [Phil 3:21] is not about submitting spiritually but God having the power to change EVEN our bodies.

It regards body, soul, and spirit, Allan.

But my biggest question is:
Are you saying that regeneration (being born again) is not a completed act until we stand before the Bema Seat Judgment?

You said NOT to use the "born again" terminology in your OP!! :laugh: Stop comparing that!

Actually, it's like I just said -- we are born "babes" in Christ and, yes, it takes till the Bema to be "complete" in Christ!

That makes absolutely no sense [belief vs. faith, hope vs. sight]

Allan, unless you are born again you CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God, right? When you only believe, you do NOT see the kingdom. You must repent and receive to turn hope into sight!

You know, we usually think of sight in regards to when we seen Christ or when Messiah's kingdom comes. But Allan -- wouldn't you agree that when we believe and are saved that we CAN see the kingdom of God? Isn't that what 1Cor 2 -- knowing the 'hidden wisdom of God' -- is all about? SEEING the mysteries and parables when the world cannot?

But I'm glad asked these questions. I don't believe Calvinists have thought of this either.

skypair

 

[Allan]

Guys, this is NOT skypair's opinion --- it's "All the Doctrines of the Bible" by Lockyer. Wake up and smell the coffee!! CONVERSION and then regeneration and faith!

skypair

Sky, no one said it is. If you notice, you stated alot of things that need more clarification. Like your above. You simply make a statement and expect us to just accept it.

Though I appreciate YOU being the only one to attempt to answer the 3 questions posed. You needed to be clearer on what you are ascribing as your points and position.

However, we will disagree about faith coming after regeneration but belief is before regeneration.

 

[skypair]

It is rather a chronological order rather than a time frame. Wouldn't you agree that to be born again is a work of God? Why limit God to time? He is not bound by time.... He is present at the culmination of all "time". This is a common mistake we humans make.

Yet God DID bind Himself to time in Christ -- and in YOUR salvation.

Now... lets make this clear. God's election of men is not because of His foresight. His election of men is because of His good pleasure. If you want to view election as because of God's foresight, then what God foresees men will do... no way around it. God's decrees will stand.

You're talking in circles, rb. It is NOT clear that it is God's election of men and not men's choosing of God. It is NOT clear that God chose rather than forsaw. The Bible says He foresaw. There is a MAN who postulated that "foreknow" means predestined.

skypair

 

[skypair]

To quote a professor of mine whom I love dearly; "I'm not so sure I can't agree with that."

Or as someone I know has said, "I don't understand all that I know about that."

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

I will respond in reverse order:

2. To use to word "divorce" in describing the present force and its relationship to the past complete action is to misunderstand the nature of its distinction. Nothing is being divorced. This is the nature of its use. Not exclusively but much of the time and is so here, hence why it is translated "is born", the emphasis being on the present reality of a completed past action.

This is simply a grammar rule and reality of the Greek perfect and surely you know this. There is a present force employed. It isn't my grammar rule I made up.

1. And I have not disagreed with the use of the perfect.

a. Let me quote a source that speaks to the same: "Believing" in Jesus (present tense in Gr.) is a direct consequence of our "having been born" (perfect tense in Gr.) of God and therefore becomes a "test" or of proof of that birth" (Glenn W. Barker, "1 John," in EBC, vol.12, p. 348).

1. As for 1 Cor 5:14
I need more information regarding what you are asking about "rose", its significance and the perfect tense.

2. His resurrection is historic, completed act, captured by the perfect tense, with present realities.

 

[TCGreek]

I agree that a chronological argument can be made with 1 John 5:4 (but I'm not trying to). But those texts WE were discussing concerns the verses with the Perfect tense. These verses can not be used to state or specifically define an order because that is not the intent of Perfect tense here.

Simply put the past act of faith is that which is equated WITH being Born. Both are past but not chronologically defined in the Perfect.

I was only appealing to your own use of what you were denying me, except you reserved the sequence.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

1. And I have not disagree with the use of the perfect.

a. Let me quote a source that speaks to the same: "Believing" in Jesus (present tense in Gr.) is a direct consequence of our "having been born" (perfect tense in Gr.) of God and therefore becomes a "test" or of proof of that birth" (Glenn W. Barker, "1 John," in EBC, vol.12, p. 348).



2. His resurrection is historic, completed act, captured by the perfect tense, with present realities.

I agree on both occasions.

 

[Allan]

I was only appealing to your own use of what you were denying me, except you reserved the sequence.

I see, allow me clarify then.

I am not denying you a sequence of events to be established. But as shown you just can not derive a sequence of events through the 'Perfect tense' usage with Present force.

If you would be so kind as address the 3 questions in the OP, it would help some understanding and the furtherance of this thread in relation to intent of the OP.

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Allan]

It has been discussed many times on the BB, but I don't remember the last thread that was specific to what Regeneration actually is and entails thereby establishing it as the Act BEFORE or OF Salvation.

I don't 'specifically' want this to be a C/A debate (though it will be by nature) but what I want to actaully discuss is -

1. What regeneration is?

2. What it does?

3. How it does it?

(plz, refrain from using 'born-agian' AT PRESENT since there are 2 views of what the word entails and could get confusing till we establish our positions better within the thread. You may acknoweldge it as sysnonmous with what word you 'would' apply to it if you must at the outset. Thank you.)

Please leave aside the 'dead in sin' issue IF POSSIBLE (I don't want a 'dead in sin' thread but a thread examining the nature of 'Regeneration' and it's function with regard to the 3 above mentioned questions.

I will obviously start:

It would appear (at least to me) that when a person is regenerated before salvation, there is no need for 'faith' which scripture states brings salvation - Believe and be saved. Why? Because the person who is regenerated before salvation, according to some, is (1) given a new nature AND (2) now has the Holy Spirit indwelling them or residing in them (though not technically filling them) AND (3) that their relationship to and with God the Father has already been reconciled (thus the new nature and indwelling Spirit of GOd) AND (4) they are now IN Christ.

The problem in the person being 'reconciled' before faith is that the person who is reconciled is considered justified toward God and also sanctified by God making the person in a right relationship with God - Righteous. All this without faith ever being excersized nor repentance made. All of these are against what scripture states : that they are all imputed by or through Faith. (see below)

The scriptural mandate for one to have faith in order to be saved is no longer valid since the work of salvation is already done before repentence or Faith is even acknowledged. If this is true what we have is salvation BEFORE repentance and faith and not as says the scriptre "repent and beleive", "repent or you shall all likewise perish" and "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" et. (Mar 1:15, Luk 13:3,5 , Act 16:31, Rom 10:9 et.)

IF a person is regenerated by God before faith, they are in fact made alive unto God because they have been reconciled unto God by Christ's propitiation BEFORE faith. Therefore they are IN Christ.

As I previously stated, for this to be true:
1. Then they are ALREADY sanctified - or set apart for and by God ; being pure
2. and to be sanctified you must ALREADY be Justified
....a. that he WILL BE righteous (or in a right relationship with God).
3. And all of these are done by the Holy Spirit who is now indwelling the Non-BELIEVER (or one who has not yet believed).

But unfortunately the indwelling Holy Spirit, sanctification, justification, and righteousness are all imputed ONLY AFTER Faith is excersized.

It is my belief that the process of regeneration reveals that it IS the EVENT of Salvation which is of grace by faith and not the precurser to it. Otherwise you have the cart before the horse. Regeneration also only appears twice in scripture and it is never seen as that which is before salvation.

I believe you can not be regenerate (which MUST include justification and sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Spirit) before faith.
WHY?

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation which is imputed to us 'by faith' and both terms are describe as being born-again (the New Birth).

__________________

Now if I'm wrong in understanding those who hold to regeneration preceding faith, then correct by all means. Do so (if you would be so kind) by answering the 3 questions set forth in the OP (shown above).


SKYPAIR - I will answer yours shortly - right now I'm at work.

 

[Allan]

Sorry it took so long Sky.

Regeneration is the "work" that God has begun in us (Phil 1:6) when we receive Christ. It is done by the POWER of the indwelling HS.

Not sure I agree since regeneration is not something 'begun' as though it is not completed yet. (It may be cause I'm not sure what you are getting at here, so bare with me).
Regeneration IS a completed work of God not a continuing work.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Notice the term 'are passed' which is in the indicitive mood meaning - a simple statement of fact.
The same is with 'are become' which is also in the indicitive mood as well.
The phrase "all things are become new" is the same as saying "all things [have] become new" thus establishing NOT a progressive regeneration but a completed fact, and is why it states the old ARE passed and the new ARE become (not becoming).

Since you and I hold regeneration in the same meaning I will use this verse of born again to illistrate anther statement of fact not progressive regeneration.
You can not 'see' (meaning percieve) the Kingdom of God unless you are 'born again'. Not until you are completely born again. It is an established fact that either either ARE or ARE NOT.

Conversion is IMMEDIATE justification -- regeneration is PROGRESSIVE sanctification. We are reBORN as babes growing into the "adults" -- into the "image of His dear Son," Rom 8:29.

Regeneration is NOT sanctification.
We are either born again or we are not, and it is that simple.
Regeneration, Sanctification, and Glorification can best expressed in like manner:

1. He HAS saved us (regeneration) – Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2. He IS saving us (sanctification) - 2 Cor. 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

3. He WILL save us (glorification) - 1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Regeneration and Sanctification ARE NOT the same thing.

Actually, it's like I just said -- we are born "babes" in Christ and, yes, it takes till the Bema to be "complete" in Christ!

Umm. No, that is not what scripture states. Eph 2:8 (HAVE BEEN SAVED) We will see the culmination of the salvation we have already at the Bema Seat but the Bema Seat in no way is there to establishes us as the saved. The Bema seat is for those ALREADY deemed saved. It is a place of rewards for those who ALREADY ARE saved.

Allan, unless you are born again you CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God, right? When you only believe, you do NOT see the kingdom. You must repent and receive to turn hope into sight!

If you will note the word "see" can also mean and in fact does mean 'perceive' - to understand something. This 'see' is connected to being born again JUST as being born again is connected with 'entering' the Kingdom. They are synonamous.
It is why the world know (understand - perceive) we are here because they hear us but do not understand what we are doing.
This is why Nick asks How can this be. Not that he disputed Jesus but that he never noticed that truth until Jesus presented it to him regarding the scriptures he (Nick) was considered a master of.

However, regarding 'believe' - I do not believe you are correct. If you were able to read the Greek like you do the English you would not see the word believe or faith as different words. They are actaully the same word. And can be seen where Scripture states :

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
......................................................
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
......................................................
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Since we both beleive that born again IS saved, you will note the above states that they only believed that they are and or are to be saved/born again.

BTW - where are you learning alot of this believe and repent and then you get faith from God to replace your belief. Or that regeneration is sanctification and that we are becoming saved until the bema where we ARE saved?

You know, we usually think of sight in regards to when we seen Christ or when Messiah's kingdom comes. But Allan -- wouldn't you agree that when we believe and are saved that we CAN see the kingdom of God? Isn't that what 1Cor 2 -- knowing the 'hidden wisdom of God' -- is all about? SEEING the mysteries and parables when the world cannot?

Sorry, I am again in disagreement.
To see Christ IS to see the Kingdom for the Kingdom is in Christ, is of Christ, Through Christ, and by Christ. Christ IS our Faith and Hope (expectation).
What is eternal life but that we might know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent.
Paul stated "I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord...".
IOW - To see Christ for who He truly is, is to see the very Kingdom of God, and know Christ is to also know the Kingdom into which we have entered.

But I'm glad asked these questions. I don't believe Calvinists have thought of this either.

I never said I think the Calvinists have not thought this through. But I did want to speak of it to be better set forth an understanding of Regeneration and let others define the words and their meaning, what it is and does. That way we can honestly set forth a proper dialog to see if it can be an either or premise with no damage to the scripture or if we could potentially see it as a Prelude TO salvaiton or the Act OF salvation.

 

[TCGreek]

I see, allow me clarify then.

I am not denying you a sequence of events to be established. But as shown you just can not derive a sequence of events through the 'Perfect tense' usage with Present force.

If you would be so kind as address the 3 questions in the OP, it would help some understanding and the furtherance of this thread in relation to intent of the OP.

:smilewinkgrin:

1. What regeneration is?

1. Regeneration is a "The concept of God renovating the heart, the core of a person's being, by implanting a new principle of desire, purpose, and action, a dispositional dynamic that finds expression in positive respose to the gospel and its Christ" (J.I. Packer, Concise Theology, p. 157).

2. What it does?



3. How it does it?

2. These two other questions are answered in the definition I offered above from J.I. Packer.

 

[Allan]

1. Regeneration is a "The concept of God renovating the heart, the core of a person's being, " (J.I. Packer, Concise Theology, p. 157).



2. These two other questions are answered in the definition I offered above from J.I. Packer.

First, let me state I appreciate your answering the questions :thumbs:
I will break up the statement in accordance with the questions presented if that is ok?

I asked:

1. What regeneration is?

Your answered via quote from J.I. Packer:

"The concept of God renovating the heart, the core of a person's being..."

God willing, no one SHOULD dispute this.


I also asked:

2. What it does?

Asswer via Packer in rest of his quote:

"..implanting a new principle of desire, purpose, and action, a dispositional dynamic that finds expression in positive respose to the gospel and its Christ"

So what it does is:
1. Implants a new principle desire
2. Implants a new purpose
3. Implants a new action (?)
4. Implants new dispositional dynamic...positive responce to the responce to both Christ and the Gospel

Is that correct thus far?

I also asked:

3. How it does it?

This was not answered by Packer in the above quote.
He answered a 'Why' question in answering - that regeneration... [is to bring about a] postivie responce...

So I'm still looking for the third question.

It could also be stated this way:
How does regeneration bring us into union or approval with God?

 

[Allan]

Bumpity bump

With all of Bismarks posting I nearly lost track of where it went :laugh:

 

[skypair]

Not sure I agree since regeneration is not something 'begun' as though it is not completed yet. (It may be cause I'm not sure what you are getting at here, so bare with me).
Regeneration IS a completed work of God not a continuing work.

in "All the Doctrines of the Bible" Lockyer states that sanctification is immediate, progressive and eventual. Yes, it has a beginning -- we are babes in Christ when first regenerated. But we grow up from that same regeneration until we are completely changed.

You can not 'see' (meaning percieve) the Kingdom of God unless you are 'born again'. Not until you are completely born again. It is an established fact that either either ARE or ARE NOT.

Exactly -- but you do not see it all at once.

Regeneration, Sanctification, and Glorification can best expressed in like manner:

1. He HAS saved us (regeneration) – Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2. He IS saving us (sanctification) - 2 Cor. 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

3. He WILL save us (glorification) - 1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

It is clearer that way.

Regeneration and Sanctification ARE NOT the same thing.

Part of same thing, salavtion.

However, regarding 'believe' - I do not believe you are correct. If you were able to read the Greek like you do the English you would not see the word believe or faith as different words. They are actaully the same word. And can be seen where Scripture states :

That's quite alright. But right now you only believe there is a rapture coming -- when you "fly away," you will have faith of it. :thumbs:

BTW - where are you learning alot of this believe and repent and then you get faith from God to replace your belief. Or that regeneration is sanctification and that we are becoming saved until the bema where we ARE saved?

Faith is a "spiritual gift." Thus, it is given by God, not something that we can create in ourselves. Only God can give the "evidence" and "substance" of belief that is faith. That evidence and substance is the indwelling HS and the ability to see and enter the kingdom.

To see Christ IS to see the Kingdom...

That's NOT what Jesus told Nicky and Jesus (the kingdom of God) was standing right before him! 1Cor 2 makes it clear that the kingdom is the 'hidden wisdom of God' and the mysteries and parables (cf. Mt 13:11-14). The kingdom is perceived SPITIRUALLY, not physically, at this time. Christ is, obviously, a part of it -- the mystery of "God with us" for instance.

I never said I think the Calvinists have not thought this through. But I did want to speak of it to be better set forth an understanding of Regeneration and let others define the words and their meaning, what it is and does. That way we can honestly set forth a proper dialog to see if it can be an either or premise with no damage to the scripture or if we could potentially see it as a Prelude TO salvaiton or the Act OF salvation.

I am in full agreement that this is where Calvinists "miss the boat." One cannot be born again/regenerated without belief and repentance toward God/justification.

I'm not sure what "damage to scripture" is done by calling for belief prior to regeneration, Allan, and proof of belief provided after regeneration in what we call "faith." What do you call the decision-making activity that leads up to regeneration?

skypair