Regeneration: Is it a prelude to OR the Act of Salvation ~Born Again~

[Winman]

You guys will probably not agree with me, but I think the parable of the prodigal son shows what happens in salvation.

First, this young man repented while he was still in sin.

Luke 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

This fellow was still a sinner. He was living with the pigs. He was filthy. It says he "came to himself". He realized his sin had ruined his life and resolved to go back to his father, whom he believed to be merciful and would at least accept him back as a servant. This shows both repentance and faith.

Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

This is God's foreknowledge. He sees who will believe before they actually do. When the son was still a great way off his father saw him. This also shows God's willingness to forgive us even before we repent. We love him because he first loved us.

Luke 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

Here the son confesses his sin. Now we see three things happen here. First, the father calls for the best robe to be placed on him. This is the righteousness of Christ being imputed to him. It is covering his filth.

Next we see the ring, this is adoption or sonship.

Then we see the shoes on his feet. This may mean the new nature given to a man, it directs his way his walk. Or perhaps as shoes protect our feet, it shows God's preservation of the saint.

Here is Matthew Henry's take on this passage, just to show you that I am not out in right field on this.

The righteousness of Christ is the robe, that principal robe, with which they are clothed; they put on the Lord Jesus Christ, are clothed with that Sun. The robe of righteousness is the garment of salvation, Isa. 61:10. A new nature is this best robe; true penitents are clothed with this, being sanctified throughout. Secondly, The earnest of the Spirit, by whom we are sealed to the day of redemption, is the ring on the hand. After you believed you were sealed. They that are sanctified are adorned and dignified, are put in power, as Joseph was by Pharaoh’s giving him a ring: "Put a ring on his hand, to be before him a constant memorial of his father’s kindness, that he may never forget it.’’ Thirdly, The preparation of the gospel of peace is as shoes for our feet (Eph. 6:15), so that, compared with this here, signifies (saith Grotius) that God, when he receives true penitents into his favour, makes use of them for the convincing and converting of others by their instructions, at least by their examples. David, when pardoned, will teach transgressors God’s ways, and Peter, when converted, will strengthen his brethren. Or it intimates that they shall go on cheerfully, and with resolution, in the way of religion, as a man does when he has shoes on his feet, above what he does when he is barefoot.

 

[zrs6v4]

Winman,

I most definitely believe that parable is about repentance and faith. It is an awesome parable. I believe that is a great picture of what it looks like when someone turns to Christ along with the character of God in the process as a loving Father with His arms open to everyone.

-everyone repents while they are still in sin because justification comes through faith.

-Everyone must come to themselves. this is where repentance and faith begin, in our hearts. When we see, hear, and understand in our hearts and turn then we are forgiven and all of heaven is in great joy.

- I dont want to get into the foreknowledge debate, there are probably hundreds of threads on it already and it wont go anywhere Im sure, hah.

 

[Allan]

I think I agree with the first paragraph.
The second paragraph is a struggle, I am between the two points, although I dont think regeneration before or after faith would take away from God's effectual calling.

Now this is actaully true. There are Calvinists or Reformed brethren who do not agree that regeneration precedes faith, but also that this does not negate God's effectual calling. Millard Erickson has written a Systematic Theology book which states this exact view in relation to the reformed position which he and many others hold.

I agree that it makes more sense for regeneration to be speaking of cleansing of sin and setting free, although again I am between these two arguments. 3rd paragraph makes logical sense, but again I can't sign up just yet.

Nothing wrong with that

Being New would seem to entail being completely new although, again, it could simply mean a new nature.

Ok. Then what happened to the old since it speaks specifically to sin and unrighteousness?
IOW - If the old has passed away or has been removed, then how was it done in order to make them new, without the shed blood of Christ being applied to them first?

I follow what you are saying, I am just being very skeptical of either side. I agree with what you are saying that born again makes more sense to be cleansed (new or no sin), new nature, new life, new direction, etc...

Then why not take some time to examine scripture for yourself 'from that point of view' and see what scripture says. It isn't easy because sometimes it means we have to change our view, but sometimes it only means we either need to modify it, or that we might have been right all along.

So do you differentiate the rebirth and sealing of the Spirit? if so how? Im guessing you are saying that the instant faith happens the Spirit comes in and regenerates and indwells a believer. I am familiar with this and it is 1 of two of my options as I keep stating

Yes. Rebirth is making something new, while sealing is a different aspect altogether in which the Holy Spirit doesn't just change you but 'indwells' you permenantly. However scripture states that His 'indwelling' or 'sealing' does not happen but 'by faith'.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Holy Spirit through faith.

Eph 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.

Yea I am overly familiar with this as it has been my view for awhile. The only thing I really am unsure of here is where to place regeneration. I understand that they say this is a work of the Holy Spirit in which He gives life and thus ability to respond in faith.

This is where the waters always go muddied to me when I studied the Reformed view on regeneration. They would always state it was simply making someone new or alive but this was always in conjunction with the argument of man being dead in as to not be able to respond.

However, when they talked about what regeneraiton entailed - justification, sanctification, being made in a right relationship with God (Righteous) and being 'In Christ' all of this apart from faith (and some state indwelling of the Holy Spirit) - it made no sense.

In the first it is an 'assumed' logical argument but only if dead means unable. It is most often declared as logical but not necessarily chronological by the reformed - This is why the reformed state the argument for regeneration precedeing faith is understood as a 'logical' arguement as seen by men like Sproul:

Dr Sproul, What is Reformed Theology, says, p. 195

Regeneration precedes faith because it is a necessary condition for faith...It is important to understand, however, that the order of salvation refers to logical order, not necessarily a temporal order...We believe that at the very moment faith is present, justification occurs. There is no time lapse between faith and justification...

Similarly when Reformed theology says regeneration precedes faith, it is speaking in terms of logical priority, not temporal priority...

emphasis mine
However when one examines what regeneration actaully entails it fails to support the logical argument and the reverse is actually validated chronologically by scripture. It is also interesting to me that Sproul states justification is present at the very moment faith is, and yet scripture specifically states it is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28). Anyhoo.. moving on..

This makes logical sense in this line of thought, but I do think that the Holy Spirit could call someone to faith sovereignly without regenerating first. Therefore I would be more agreement on your previous points if I held to that perspective.

Well, my question is.. if scripture confirms my statements about what regeneration entials and when it transpires according to scripture, why not change it?

Makes sense although I wouldnt make regeneration equal with adoption.

I think scripture addresses this as happening at the same time though they speak to different things being done.:

If I agreed with you that rebirth, sealing, justification, sanctification, adoption all come after faith then I would still argue that the state of being is quite new and different and has a new nature because of the Spirit being present within.

But the Spirit of God is NOT sent into our hearts until AFTER we have believed "Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Not to mention the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Rom 6), which is when He comes into our lives while placeing us into the body of Christ, as well as what I show previously in that He is the very Spirit of our adoption.

Thus I'm not sure you 'can' hold to the view about somekind of new nature due to the Holy Spirit being present within (indwelling). First there is no new nature apart from being cleansed from sin, set apart unto God and alive which is only something that happens when one is 'In Christ', and all of these come to pass - by faith, INCLUDING the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Im not saying you disagree, but I can see how regeneration can be mistaken before faith or after faith because the same Spirit who gives eyes does a similar work before or after faith to bring about salvation. If you dont follow I can explain in more depth.

Actually it can't be mistaken unless one isn't sure of what it not only is but what it does and why.

I believe these aspects of what and why, crumble the argument of regeneration preceding faith because the very things that transpire, according to scripture, do not do so until after faith - and that includes being 'alive' which only happens when we are placed 'In Christ' and that only happens at the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which only happens after we have believed.

This is my possible view that all gifts of salvation are poured out at the same time by the Spirit after His call

Yet, now you must figure out what to do with faith since all those gifts are to be received 'by faith'. Thus faith must precede them all

 

[zrs6v4]

Now this is actaully true. There are Calvinists or Reformed brethren who do not agree that regeneration precedes faith, but also that this does not negate God's effectual calling. Millard Erickson has written a Systematic Theology book which states this exact view in relation to the reformed position which he and many others hold.

Thanks for the info. That's good to know.

Then why not take some time to examine scripture for yourself 'from that point of view' and see what scripture says. It isn't easy because sometimes it means we have to change our view, but sometimes it only means we either need to modify it, or that we might have been right all along.

Im in the process ... I agree that we are stubborn in our views.

This is where the waters always go muddied to me when I studied the Reformed view on regeneration. They would always state it was simply making someone new or alive but this was always in conjunction with the argument of man being dead in as to not be able to respond.

However, when they talked about what regeneraiton entailed - justification, sanctification, being made in a right relationship with God (Righteous) and being 'In Christ' all of this apart from faith (and some state indwelling of the Holy Spirit) - it made no sense.

In the first it is an 'assumed' logical argument but only if dead means unable. It is most often declared as logical but not necessarily chronological by the reformed .

I see a spiritually dead person able but not able more than completely without the ability if that makes sense. It doesnt mean that the option isnt there, but that man on his own wont go there. To me its the opposite of Jesus in flesh. The option to sin was there, but He never heeded. It wasnt that He didnt have the ability, but that while He was able, He wasnt able by nature. I would agree with reformed men like Sproul that God's previous work entails faith, then justification, sanctification, etc... I just may disagree that regeneration is the work that God uses to cause these events.

It is also interesting to me that Sproul states justification is present at the very moment faith is, and yet scripture specifically states it is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28). Anyhoo.. moving on..

Yea, Im not sure what Sproul means, but I would say that he probably means that there is no time gap between faith and God's justification. IOW the very instant we have faith we are also justified but yet faith chronologically precedes justification.

Well, my question is.. if scripture confirms my statements about what regeneration entials and when it transpires according to scripture, why not change it?

I wanted to examine all verses on rebirth again and then do it a second third and fourth time to make sure I am not missing something. :laugh: Oh and I want to keep my pride here and stay firm on my view even if it makes no sense.... jk

But the Spirit of God is NOT sent into our hearts until AFTER we have believed "Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

I knew I should have clarified. I didnt mean to come across as if justification, sanctification, adoption, and sealing didnt come after faith, but my main difference I was refering to here was regeneration.

Thus I'm not sure you 'can' hold to the view about somekind of new nature due to the Holy Spirit being present within (indwelling). First there is no new nature apart from being cleansed from sin, set apart unto God and alive which is only something that happens when one is 'In Christ', and all of these come to pass - by faith, INCLUDING the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Yea I agree being "In Christ" shows we are righteous and justified through faith in His work so those are after faith. I also agree that sanctification begins at faith, adoption, sealing, and cleansing. My thing is that I dont want to misread a Scripture trying to read something into it. I dont want to have a chronological argument from a couple of verses that might or might not be intended to be chronological in order. I am not disagreeing with you, but this is where I must spend time and come to a conclusion if possible.

Yet, now you must figure out what to do with faith since all those gifts are to be received 'by faith'. Thus faith must precede them all

Faith is the first gift then boom all of the other gifts flow from the very instant we turn to Christ. Its possible, but I dont buy it at this point.

If you have a compilation of verses regarding regeneration can you please post them?

 

[Allan]

I wanted to examine all verses on rebirth again and then do it a second third and fourth time to make sure I am not missing something. :laugh: Oh and I want to keep my pride here and stay firm on my view even if it makes no sense.... jk

I honestly realize that, but was poking a little fun at you :laugh:

I knew I should have clarified. I didnt mean to come across as if justification, sanctification, adoption, and sealing didnt come after faith, but my main difference I was refering to here was regeneration.

Then I must point you back my previous questions:

The term 'new' here means specifically that - new. No defects, without fault, perfect or right.

If, as you say, old things are sin and unrighteousness (refer back to your answer on this) - what then is 'new' referring to since it is contrasting these two points?

You state 'new' refers to being born.
Ok. But what does being born or born from above entail, what happens (how)
How are they made new apart from God removing sin and unrighteousness?

Yea I agree being "In Christ" shows we are righteous and justified through faith in His work so those are after faith. I also agree that sanctification begins at faith, adoption, sealing, and cleansing. My thing is that I dont want to misread a Scripture trying to read something into it.

Ok, but how are 'you' reading something into it if it is not even your view or not even sure if it is a correct view?
If you are coming to the text and it doesn't mesh with your current view, it is almost impossible to make the statement, I'm read something into it.

I dont want to have a chronological argument from a couple of verses that might or might not be intended to be chronological in order. I am not disagreeing with you, but this is where I must spend time and come to a conclusion if possible.

Very true, regarding you spending time. However if there 'are' passage that stand against some things we hold true, we can not simply discount them but must use them to objectively review our previous thoughts on the matter. And if scripture gives a specific chronology (ie. this then that, or this happens by or due to that) then what else can we do but note it and either change or hold fast to it.

I am just stating, don't let your theology determine what scripture is stating or how things aught to be. Let scripture build and dictate your theology and


Faith is the first gift then boom all of the other gifts flow from the very instant we turn to Christ. Its possible, but I dont buy it at this point.

If you have a compilation of verses regarding regeneration can you please post them?

Not sure what you mean here. You mean you want me to quote all the verse that have born, born-agian, regenetion, alive, etc.. in them?

 

[Rippon]

Now this is actaully (sic)true. There are Calvinists or Reformed brethren who do not agree that regeneration precedes faith, but also that this does not negate God's effectual calling. Millard Erickson has written a Systematic Theology book which states this exact view in relation to the reformed position which he and many others hold.

Millard Erickson is not a Calvinist.

 

[Allan]

Millard Erickson is not a Calvinist.

Did I call him a 5 point Calvinist? No.
What I stated is ..

There are Calvinists or Reformed brethren ...
Millard Erickson has written a Systematic Theology book ... in relation to the reformed position which he and many others hold.

I do agree he is not a 5 pointer but a 4 pointer - well really it could be said to be more like 4 and half.

There are some Calvnists on this board (5 pointers) who hold to faith preceding regeneration, like Pastor Larry for example, but my point was that Mr. Erickson is speaking to the reformed position 'he' and others hold to. Last I heard, TCGreek had begun leaning this direction due to his studies of scripture but I haven't heard whether he settled there or not. There are a couple of others but don't remember them specifically since they haven't frequented the BB in a very long time.

 

[Rippon]

I do agree he is not a 5 pointer but a 4 pointer

Do you believe that there are 4-point Arminians?

 

[zrs6v4]

ALLAN:

I was doing a lesson for my Sunday school class and it was on Mathew 13:44. I didnt even get into regeneration, but I spoke on conversion. Anyway it made me think and here is my line of thinking-

1. Mathew 13:11 "For you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted."
A. God grants our understanding of His kingdom

2. Mathew 13:14-16 "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, "You keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep seeing, but not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes, otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand in their heart and return, and I would heal them."
A. prophecy Isaiah 6
B. people can incline their heart and when they do this, it is God working in them. Its fair to instruct people to incline their heart to understanding and instruct that God will bless that, and at the same time is that the deeper truth is that it must be God who grants.
C. main message is to people who have grown dull and dont want to hear. namely the Jews who Isaiah is speaking of although I do think this applies to Jews and gentiles alike. Jews are clearly more hardened that gentiles because of the natural process of hardening that increases with denial of truth. Yet everyone is somewhere in this process before converted.
D. Notice the process that becomes before healing is that one must see, hear, and understand in his heart.

Mathew 13:44 "The Kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field."
A. kingdom is of utmost beauty and highest treasure there is
B. This is God Himself and His work including the gospel
C. It is hidden and must be found by men (Id assume because of sin)
D upon seeing this highest treasure the result is a newfound purpose in which one is sold out unto completely.

John 3:3 "truly I say to you unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"
A. Jesus is saying that in order to see the kingdom spiritually we must be born again. This would not only include the Gospel and work of Christ but clearly Jesus Himself.

So here is my conclusion with these passages

A. If the first thing that must happen before turning to God one must, in his heart, see, hear, and understand God and this includes His kingdom.
B. If One sees, hears, and understands (finds the treasure) the kingdom, then he will sell all that he has (repentance/faith) and buy that treasure (turn his life over to it joyfully, etc)...
C. If one cannot see God's kingdom in his heart without being born again first then it seems as if being born again is a necessity before one sees it and turns to it.
D. If this seeing the kingdom is granted by God, then it is God who born's people )) again before they have repentance and faith. This would also mean that it is God who teaches people who come and who respond to His words (John 6:44-45).

 

[Allan]

D. Notice the process that becomes before healing is that one must see, hear, and understand in his heart.

Hmmm. I don't see a progression in this. If they perceive they also can hear ad liste

Mathew 13:44 "The Kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field."
A. kingdom is of utmost beauty and highest treasure there is
B. This is God Himself and His work including the gospel
C. It is hidden and must be found by men (Id assume because of sin)
D upon seeing this highest treasure the result is a newfound purpose in which one is sold out unto completely.

I agree however - 'how' was he able to see that he might 'seek' after him, what happened that brought about this change?

John 3:3 "truly I say to you unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"
A. Jesus is saying that in order to see the kingdom spiritually we must be born again. This would not only include the Gospel and work of Christ but clearly Jesus Himself.

IF John 3:3 started and stopped there, maybe but it doesn't.

So here is my conclusion with these passages

A. If the first thing that must happen before turning to God one must, in his heart, see, hear, and understand God and this includes His kingdom.

How is one able to see, hear, and understand?
What must happen in order for this to transpire?

If you state born-again? Just what exactly does this entail and how is it brought into being with the life of the non-believer?

B. If One sees, hears, and understands (finds the treasure) the kingdom, then he will sell all that he has (repentance/faith) and buy that treasure (turn his life over to it joyfully, etc)...

Ok, you have this person seeing and hearing and understanding, but what has happened to change their disposition.

Secondly, Jesus plainly tells us later in His discussion with Nick that not all who see, hear, and understand will receive what God is offering - Serpent on the pole illistration by Christ.

C. If one cannot see God's kingdom in his heart without being born again first then it seems as if being born again is a necessity before one sees it and turns to it.

First you are limiting greatly what the kingdom of God is. It is not who Jesus is and gospel. The Kingdom of God always refers to the entire realm of God working and growing and moving.

Thus seeing the Kingdom of God is more than understanding the gospel and as a matter of fact it is much more so here in this aspect. Nick and the other leaders were awed by Jesus releationship and His understanding of God's workings, but they being teachers and spiritual leaders didn't have remotely his knowledge and Nick went to Jesus himself because he desired to know more. Jesus point about 'seeing' or perceiving the Kingdom work was directly related to Nick's reason for being there. You can't know what God is doing in the spiritual realm (Kingdom of God) unless you yourself have been changed by God by being born agian. However what is being discussed here is MORE than 'seeing' in order to salvation but seeing in order to be in that relationship with God the Father to know what His heart and desires. It is in this we find Jesus explains just exactly what being born again entails in verse 5 (washing of water/cleansing and of the Spirit/justification - Titus 3:5)

If this seeing the kingdom is granted by God, then it is God who born's people )) again before they have repentance and faith. This would also mean that it is God who teaches people who come and who respond to His words (John 6:44-45).

You have a problem with verse 3 stating you need to be born again and verse 5 describing just what being born again entails. It is a passage that parallels Titus 3:5, which aslo describe that changed nature stated distinctly as regeneration.
Thus the whole point of this thread. What does being born-again, regeneration ential and 'how' does this transpire.

Scripture states that all aspects of regeneration/born again transpire 'by faith' and thus in fact, faith comes before regeneration.

Also John 6:44-45, the verbs there stating those who heard and learned of God are both active verbs showing the hearing and the learning was done by the person and that they were passive in niether instance.

 

[zrs6v4]

Hmmm. I don't see a progression in this. If they perceive they also can hear ad liste

it is a complete action of having spiritual understanding as a whole.

I agree however - 'how' was he able to see that he might 'seek' after him, what happened that brought about this change?

for those who have been given to know the secrets by God. This is my point there was a point in which the man saw something he previously didnt. So was it that God revealed it or did the man simply find it on his own.

IF John 3:3 started and stopped there, maybe but it doesn't.
How is one able to see, hear, and understand?
What must happen in order for this to transpire?

It is something God does in a person in which they always respond. Again why do some see and some not see? It depends on God who chooses who sees what and when.

If you state born-again? Just what exactly does this entail and how is it brought into being with the life of the non-believer?

It is something God does in order to let the person begin to see the light that he never saw before. In this it must not mean that faith is necessary, but rather an unconditional work of God the Spirit.

Ok, you have this person seeing and hearing and understanding, but what has happened to change their disposition.

Kind of a repeat, but God effectually reveals Himself in a person's heart. Much like showing a poor person a free gift of a million dollars.

Secondly, Jesus plainly tells us later in His discussion with Nick that not all who see, hear, and understand will receive what God is offering - Serpent on the pole illistration by Christ.

I dont think Jesus is linking it in that way, He seems to be making a transition that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life just like what Moses did.

First you are limiting greatly what the kingdom of God is. It is not who Jesus is and gospel. The Kingdom of God always refers to the entire realm of God working and growing and moving.

I said, "This is God Himself and His work including the gospel" Im sorry for my confusion, but was trying to say what you said. I would say God is the center of His kingdom and the foremost what we need to see.

Thus seeing the Kingdom of God is more than understanding the gospel and as a matter of fact it is much more so here in this aspect. Nick and the other leaders were awed by Jesus releationship and His understanding of God's workings, but they being teachers and spiritual leaders didn't have remotely his knowledge and Nick went to Jesus himself because he desired to know more. Jesus point about 'seeing' or perceiving the Kingdom work was directly related to Nick's reason for being there. You can't know what God is doing in the spiritual realm (Kingdom of God) unless you yourself have been changed by God by being born agian. However what is being discussed here is MORE than 'seeing' in order to salvation but seeing in order to be in that relationship with God the Father to know what His heart and desires. It is in this we find Jesus explains just exactly what being born again entails in verse 5 (washing of water/cleansing and of the Spirit/justification - Titus 3:5)

To see the kingdom = born again and I would offer that the smallest to the greatest spiritual things are included. Can you see anything spiritually without being born again?

To enter the kingdom = born again + cleansing (justification).

You have a problem with verse 3 stating you need to be born again and verse 5 describing just what being born again entails. It is a passage that parallels Titus 3:5, which aslo describe that changed nature stated distinctly as regeneration.

If Jesus is clearly saying in order to see anything spiritual you must be born again. Is the internal understanding of the gospel spiritual? Then I must ask, do we have to understand the gospel before we can have faith?

I would also argue that Jesus is not linking seeing and entering as the same. Before you enter you must see and believe and be justified. But you cannot see unless you are born again and you cannot enter unless you are washed.

Titus 3:3- "For we were once foolish ourselves, disobedient, decieved, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.."

1. Paul is showing the work of God like Eph 2.
2. While we were completely hostile to God notice verse 3
3. then at some point God appeared (like Mathew 13:44) we never saw Him before
4. He saved us by His mercy and not by deeds or our good works
5. by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

My issue so far is that nowhere is Paul talking about us and our faith, although we are involved. He is showing the work of God in the doing. I have a hard time changing my view based on this passage because it is a tricky passage. You are automatically assuming that because he says washing of regeneration that he means that regeneration must be with justification (very possible I admit). The tricky part is the terminology seeming to imply that regeneration is the washing.

Thus the whole point of this thread. What does being born-again, regeneration ential and 'how' does this transpire.

My big issue is how does a completely hostile and blind person see God like the bible explains? it has to be something God does effectual in a person. John is clear that God does something and people always come. So if you respond to anything on my post hit this point. How far does God go in our conversion, is it effectual or is it the same for everyone who hears?

Also John 6:44-45, the verbs there stating those who heard and learned of God are both active verbs showing the hearing and the learning was done by the person and that they were passive in niether instance.

I agree completely, but the issue is that they heard and they came. We do hear, but God does something that John speaks of and every single time those people He is doing it to hear and come.

 

[Allan]

I will get back to you on this later tonight but I will give you some food for thought.

The holy Spirit was sent to rebuke/reveal to the world (unregenerate) sin, His righteousness, and the judgment to come. These are spiritual things that must be revealed by God because of their very nature.

We find in Rom 1:18-32 God doing exactly this - revealing sin, righteousness and judgment to come. There are many other place I can/will cite as well - where it is indisputable God revealing spiritual things to the unregenerate.

Another interesting point is that Paul in Hebrews states "when you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.." Apparently Paul statement contradicts the assumption that those who hear will automatically come.

 

[zrs6v4]

Sounds good

 

[Allan]

I would also argue that Jesus is not linking seeing and entering as the same. Before you enter you must see and believe and be justified. But you cannot see unless you are born again and you cannot enter unless you are washed.

There is no other way but to link them together. Jesus tells him that in order to perceive what God is doing you must be born again, then in verse explains just what being born again means. The construction of verse 5 establishes not a seperate issue being addressed but a clarification of his statement directly related to Nick's misunderstanding of it as illistrated in verse 4.

You are trying to argue from a logical argument based primarily, not on the text but on the issue of your understanding of depravity. Remember not even the Cals/Reformers states the logical argument can be shone from the scriptures only based upon their view of the scripturs. As such you must of necessityseperate Jesus statements as two seperate events. But let he show you the fatal flaw of this view and you stated it well here:

To see the kingdom = born again and I would offer that the smallest to the greatest spiritual things are included. Can you see anything spiritually without being born again?

To enter the kingdom = born again + cleansing (justification).

You have being born-again as being able to see and hear (being made alive).

Then you have being saved as, being born-again + justification and sanctification.

There is no theologian on either side of this fence who would state differently that being born again (which is another word for regeneration) is the act of being - justified, sanctified (ie. righteous or right standing with god), and alive. These point are not argued with respect to what being born-again entials by either side.

Now before I come back to this you asked:
"Can you see anything spiriutally without being born again?"
The answer according to scripture is, yes.
John 16:7-11
The holy Spirit is will be sent to His disciples and He will be sent into the world to convict/rebuke the world of sin, righteousness, and the judgement to come. -
1. Note he is sent to convict the world - which speaks of all mankind.
2. Note that this is something they will never come to know until He does it.
3. Note that this isn't just about surface knowledge but to 'convict/rebuke' the world.

If they can not hear then how will they know much less be convicted or rebuked by such knowledge which is clearly spiritual.

Rom 1:18-33
These passages speaks directly to the issue of God revealing these same 3 truths to all men and even with them 'knowing' (meaing understanding) they still choose to ignore and or reject it. Paul (as I said previously) states in Hebrews 3 different times (3:7-8, 15; and 4:7) paralleling Isaiah's plea toward the children of Israel. However the point here is important please notice -
ESV

Hbr 3:7 ¶ Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today, if you hear his voice,

Hbr 3:8 “do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,:

Note Paul states this is the words of the Holy Spirit - If you hear His voice - do not harden your heart..

How is this even remotely possible accordinig to your view, of which you state is Pauls. Paul makes no bones about it and states these are the words of the Holy Spirit and to make his point Paul goes on to state:

Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

But notice this piece states my case even more so, listen to Paul here:

Hbr 3:16 ¶ For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Hbr 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Thus first, God called to the all in the same manner and revealed the same things, in the same way but SOME when they HEARD chose to not to believe.
This 'heard' is important because it NOT distinct from what God told and did toward those who DID believe. This is why God was grieved with them and because of unbelief they were not permintted to enter.

Now do the dead 'hear' or must they first be made alive?
Scripture declares point bland that the 'dead will hear'. Not be made alive to hear but that the 'dead' shall hear..

Jhn 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Note please - passed from death unto life and that the very next verse qualifies this statement - the dead - shall hear.

Now the second thing that is important is verse 25 is that neither 'hear' is passive but in fact refers to the person being the one doing action and not that God was making some of them to understand His speaking to them. Yes, he opened their ears but in the opening Jesus states they are STILL dead but now are able to hear the Son of man. They have been made 'to hear' but they are the ones choosing listening or not once they have been made to hear. It is for this reason (choosing to believe once they hear) that Jesus not only has the power of life for the dead that hear, but that He has also been made the judge (vs 29).

This is why Paul states in Hebrew while quoting Isaiah - today if you hear His voice - do not harden your hearts..
Thus Paul is stating, without question, that the Holy Spirits speaking to men (all men) is the same and that men must not harden it due to unbelief.

Therefore the 'dead' are the ones doing the hearing. The dead is in fact refering to the spiritually dead as context establishes this.

There are others but I hope this is enough to suffice.

Titus 3:3- "For we were once foolish ourselves, disobedient, decieved, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.."

1. Paul is showing the work of God like Eph 2.
2. While we were completely hostile to God notice verse 3
3. then at some point God appeared (like Mathew 13:44) we never saw Him before
4. He saved us by His mercy and not by deeds or our good works
5. by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

If I may humble say.. no.

This picture here is specifically who has saved us and what was done that established that salvation.
1. God is the one who saved us.
-- how --
2a. Justification
2b. Sanctification

This is just a snapshot of the whole process however it deals specifically with makes us saved, as it states - He has saved us - by - washing.. renewing..

My issue so far is that nowhere is Paul talking about us and our faith, although we are involved. He is showing the work of God in the doing. I have a hard time changing my view based on this passage because it is a tricky passage.

Nothing tricky to it brother. It says what it says and it means just that. God saved us which is by - justification and sanctification. I think it can only become tricky if it doesn't fit our personal views.

You are automatically assuming that because he says washing of regeneration that he means that regeneration must be with justification (very possible I admit). The tricky part is the terminology seeming to imply that regeneration is the washing.

See, your looking for something to help mold this into your view.
If you look up those words you will see that what I am saying is not an assumption but a fact. Washing is refering back to the OT laver whereby the priest had to wash in order to symbolically be pure/cleansed so that they could enter into the Holy Place. Regeneration means making something new again. Thus the washing is the descriptor of what is being done to make it new once more. It must be cleansed of all filth and to be made new once more. However that (justification) is only part of it, sanctification is the other equally indispencable part whereby the renewing or making something new (disposition) comes into play so they are no longer the same but seperate and distinct from the world.

Regeneration isn't washing, washing is part of the regeneration or makeing something new. Re- meaning again; and generation - act or process of bringing something into being.
Thus to regenerate is to bring someone back into being again/ remake or renew them again.

My big issue is how does a completely hostile and blind person see God like the bible explains?

Yes, it goes against what mainstream Calvinism teaches regarding Total depravity. But what does scripture teach. If a theology teaches a person who is spiritually dead can not hear and yet we see in scripture, from Jesus own teaching, the dead will hear. Then who should we believe? What should we do?

it has to be something God does effectual in a person.

This is conjecture based not on biblical facts but on a theological system that wont allow for it. Remember that theological systems are MAN's views on How and what God does. They could be right and they could be wrong or maybe just slightly wrong.

 

[Allan]

Continued..

John is clear that God does something and people always come.

I believe this is assumed on the reformed because if dead do not hear then God 'must' by necessity do something that makes these others come thus they must be the only ones able to hear. However IF the dead do in fact hear and they can choose to or not to harden their hearts, well, it appears something must need to be rethought.

So if you respond to anything on my post hit this point. How far does God go in our conversion, is it effectual or is it the same for everyone who hears?

You seem to think something give to all the same can not effectually work on those whom God desires and have chosen. God has done all He has chosen to do, through bringing forth His word to world, His Son and He death for world, the Holy Spirit and His upon the world. Mans believing isn't left up to chance but God's work is specifically designed to bringing in all His chosen through faith.

I agree completely, but the issue is that they heard and they came. We do hear, but God does something that John speaks of and every single time those people He is doing it to hear and come.

No sir, John never states that God does something that makes each one he does it to come. It ONLY states those who see AND will believe, or those who hear AND will learn.. will be saved. Nothing more and nothing less. Not once does it state only certain ones will see or hear nor that some change of disposition has taken place which makes them come.. The dead will hear .. and If you hear the Lord.. do not harden your hearts.

 

[zrs6v4]

So basically you are saying God has no control over who comes to Him (who believes)? Maybe connect it to my last question below.
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I will start in John 5:25, and we can agree to disagree.

An hour is coming when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

- You state that it is the dead hearing and believing, and all dead will hear.
- I say that these dead people that hear are the ones that God has caused to hear and understand and all of those dead that hear will live.
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John 6:37
"All the Father gives Me will come to Me..."
- I say God secretely wills and works out all aspects of peoples believing by His choice, yet we come and choose and we will not be cast out.

- Not sure how you see this passage
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John 6:44-45
"No one comes to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." "It is written in the prophets, 'And They Shall All Be Taught By God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."

- I say God chooses and draws the elect and all those He draws comes and will never be cast out. I will also say that this connection is that those who are taught in their hearts or made to understand are those who come to the Son.

- Not sure what you say, but most use John 12 and say that God draws all unbelievers to Himself and convicts all. I agree that their can be a level of conviction (John 16) without election to unbelievers, although I dont think God draws all unbelievers to Himself because if He did then they would all be saved.
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Allan in all fairness, I am not jumping to the conclusion that a person is first born again, but I am overly convinced by numerous passages that God effectual calls and chooses. This is the way I see God working in numerous passages continually throughout salvation.

It is both God and man choosing each other, yet God being the primary cause rather than man. This doesnt mean people can and cannot reject the conviction of the Spirit of God, because I think God's Spirit can be resisted. I do not think an elect person can resist God's Spirit. All of us resisted God's Spirit for a long time and hardened our hearts, then when God came in and opened our hearts we stopped resisting.

I think of our initial conversion much like the continual process of sanctification. Phil 2:13 says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work within you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

This then reminds me of Acts 2:38-39

In verse 38 Peter tells them their responsibility to repent... and then says in verse 39 that this promise is for everyone who believes, but the ones who do are the ones that God is calling to Himself.

This in my opinion is just like how Jesus taught. In the same chapter He will call people to believe and that if they do they will be saved, while at the very same time He will tell them that it isnt them that are coming to God, but God drawing them in.

My point is that there is always 2 viewpoints of God's 1 will in Scripture. Mans viewpoint and God's. We dont see God's so it is easy to leave God out, although it is the primary cause of man's every decision.
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Romans 1 In my view is speaking to all men ever since creation being without excuse with or without the Law, God has made Himself known and this is the general revelation. This lines up perfectly with everyones state (depraved) before they believed the Gospel. See Ephesians 2 and Titus 3. Paul says we all once walked this way. And we all were depraved in different levels of hardness of heart. God is just to turn us all over to that life we lived, but at times He doesnt, like Paul. This is why I think in Romans 2 Paul speaks to everyone saying we are all without excuse, we cant look at people and say wow he is depraved without looking at ourselves and saying the same thing. Whether we worship idols of statues or money its all the same.
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Hbr 3:7 ¶ Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
Hbr 3:8 “do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,:
Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hbr 3:16 ¶ For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Hbr 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

In my view it is possible for the words of the Holy Spirit to be do not harden your heart. In fact those are God's words everytime and if we dont harden our hearts then we will be blessed by God. This is our responsibility and yet God can also harden and unharden hearts. We see Pharaoh hardening and God hardening his heart. Thus we must obey God and not harden our hearts and yet it is Him willing and working within us. People defininetly can harden their hearts to God and ignore the conviction of the Spirit. This is paradoxical and in my opinion Scriptural. There are many degrees in which Scripture teaches and this is more of man's responisbility and with the flow of the author of Hebrews to write in this way. Much like Heberews Chapter 6, If we turn away from the faith then we are not saved and it is our responisibility while at the very same time when we are 100% working it is not us who endures to the end, but rather God preserving His sheep to the end. Do you see my connection here? This is why I say that God's sovereignty of our coming to Him must be the same type of work that continues throughout our lives in perseverance. Your looking at the call from the perspective of the author as if it denies that God is working in some and not others, when I think other areas of Scripture show that it is God working in some through the call to believe.
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You said, "I think it can only become tricky if it doesn't fit our personal views."
This is very very true, and when we do change it is relieving. So I was going to ask you to change- just kidding... It is also true to say that just because we force our views on certain passages does not mean our views are wrong, but our application of that particular passage.

You said, "your looking for something to help mold this into your view."

I am guilty of this in some of my posts above Im sure.

you said, "If a theology teaches a person who is spiritually dead can not hear and yet we see in scripture, from Jesus own teaching, the dead will hear. Then who should we believe? What should we do?"

I agree that our hearts must be faithful to the text rather than a theological camp. I believe this with all of my heart and it is very hard to do as you admitted. I am in a constant battle with this. Although I do disagree with your view of John 5:25 because if all of the dead hear, then they all have to live. And not all of them live as we know.

You said,"You seem to think something give to all the same can not effectually work on those whom God desires and have chosen. God has done all He has chosen to do, through bringing forth His word to world, His Son and He death for world, the Holy Spirit and His upon the world. Mans believing isn't left up to chance but God's work is specifically designed to bringing in all His chosen through faith."

Im not following here, can you expound a little more?

You say, "No sir, John never states that God does something that makes each one he does it to come. It ONLY states those who see AND will believe, or those who hear AND will learn.. will be saved. Nothing more and nothing less. Not once does it state only certain ones will see or hear nor that some change of disposition has taken place which makes them come.. The dead will hear .. and If you hear the Lord.. do not harden your hearts."

Fair enough, we will have to just disagree on this point.

 

[Allan]

So basically you are saying God has no control over who comes to Him (who believes)? Maybe connect it to my last question below.

Now how in the world can you come to this conclusion in anything I have writen?

My point is that the Reformed version of 'how' is not biblically accurate when examine in light of scripture. It is a logical 'assumption' based exclusively upon the theological system. IOW - Scripture must conform to one theology and not one theology must conform to scripture.
Examples -
Cal view -The dead do not and can not hear
Scripture - The dead hear
Cal view - You must be made alive in order to hear
Scripture - The dead hear
Cal view - The dead can not believe (in Christ)
Scripture - The dead hear and believe
Cal view - We are made alive prior to faith
Scripture - We are only alive in Christ and that occurs only 'by faith'.
Cal view - Prior to faith we (still in our sins) are placed into Christ and in unity with Him
Scripture - What concord does light have with darkness, sin with righteousness

I will start in John 5:25, and we can agree to disagree.

An hour is coming when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

- You state that it is the dead hearing and believing, and all dead will hear.
- I say that these dead people that hear are the ones that God has caused to hear and understand and all of those dead that hear will live.

Please show me where in the text it makes this distinction?
You are bring a lot of presupposition to the text and trying to force a view into it which the text does not apparently speak to.

I 'can' show that the spiritually dead mean ALL mankind becuase Jesus uses parallel wording in vs 25 with vs 28 regarding the resurrection of ALL the dead hearing His voice and rising up for the Judgment. This was the typical way of Jewish teaching to teach a principle in a repetitive fashion.
Also what must be noted is that the 'hear' being used is not passive but active meaning the subject (man) is doing something but not that he 'has' to as is with the passive verbs. Jesus also parallels this with 'hearing' and 'believing' with Himself in which vs 30, whereby he states that of his own self He can do nothing (reflecting our own state) but what He hears, He judges (just as we do), but Jesus makes a distinction in His judgment in that He is perfect and alway makes the righteous decisions because He does not seek for His own desires (Unlike man can and will at times). Also the context regards all men/mankind initiating from vs 22, clarified in 23 maintaining this view of all men, illistrated by spiritual condition of being 'dead' continuing on to the dead hearing him and rising up to judgement. Does this mean only 'some' will hear since it does not state literally "all"? Context is key and context dicates Jesus is speaking of All men which are 'dead'. There is so much here to prove my point I will just leave it there for now.

John 6:37
"All the Father gives Me will come to Me..."
- I say God secretely wills and works out all aspects of peoples believing by His choice, yet we come and choose and we will not be cast out.

- Not sure how you see this passage

I have no problem with your statement - as is.
However to 'assume' all the Father gives Him equals or equates to them being the only ones drawn is again, a forcing of ones view upon the text. The scripture is plain and I agree only those drawn 'can' come (yes, the Greek uses this word 'can' implying - potential not certainty).

John 6:44-45
"No one comes to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." "It is written in the prophets, 'And They Shall All Be Taught By God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."

- I say God chooses and draws the elect and all those He draws comes and will never be cast out. I will also say that this connection is that those who are taught in their hearts or made to understand are those who come to the Son.

While I affirn your first sentence, you have a couple of problems with the rest.
1. Not all those who are called by God will come (Prov 1:24; Rom 10:21 parallels this same statement, The parable of the Marriage feast - many are called but few are chosen, and many others). Thus the statement 'all who are called come" can not be biblically supported.

2. The prophesy dealing with God teaching is not exclusive to some but actually Inclusive of all. Those taught by God (we see this in John 16:8, Rom 1) must choose to learn from Him. That is the intent of the Greek verb for the word "learn" is refering to. It is an active verb meaning the subject is the one doing said action and not passive whereby the subject is the recipent of said action. IOW - God is teaching and they are choosing to learn it. This is why 'to learn' and 'to believe' are synonomous. It is a willing action done by the subject. We do not necessarily differ on this but on 'why' scripture states they will or will not 'learn'.

In any case, it is agreed that God must do the revealing/calling, and that only those who have been called can come and that in order to do so one must believe/learn that which the Father revealed. What is distinctly different is our view of regeneration and thus the purpose of this thread. To see what it entails and see if it matches to when and how scripture says it happens. So far, none of them match as happening before faith.

- Not sure what you say, but most use John 12 and say that God draws all unbelievers to Himself and convicts all. I agree that their can be a level of conviction (John 16) without election to unbelievers, although I dont think God draws all unbelievers to Himself because if He did then they would all be saved.

Again, this is supposition. You acknowledge that God can, (and I have shown that he does) but yet you deny He does so with any real intent.
Do you presume the gospel offer of salvation is NOT intended to all men but only the elect?

Allan in all fairness, I am not jumping to the conclusion that a person is first born again, but I am overly convinced by numerous passages that God effectual calls and chooses. This is the way I see God working in numerous passages continually throughout salvation.

Calling and choosing are NOT synonomous with regenetion nor are they even parallels of it. Thus it is a conclusion jumped to in which you presume a person must be first born again, regardless of what being born again scripturally entails.

It is both God and man choosing each other, yet God being the primary cause rather than man. This doesnt mean people can and cannot reject the conviction of the Spirit of God, because I think God's Spirit can be resisted. I do not think an elect person can resist God's Spirit.

I do not disagree.

All of us resisted God's Spirit for a long time and hardened our hearts, then when God came in and opened our hearts we stopped resisting.

Can you please show me one verse of scripture in either OT or NT where the Holy Spirit indwell a non-beleiver?
I can show you where scripture states we have received the Holy Spirit 'by faith', but I do not know of any passages which speak to the Holy Spirit entering a non-believer.

I think of our initial conversion much like the continual process of sanctification. Phil 2:13 says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work within you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

Do you have any scripture to support this hypothosis?

See, this is continually the problem with 'logical' argument. There in nothing that can be biblically given to support the assumed logical conclusion. Thus for you it will always be "I think" and never scripture states.. with respect regeneration preceding faith. Now when you speak about what regeneration does we will both agree, but with respect to when it transpires scripture bears out my position consistantly.

In verse 38 Peter tells them their responsibility to repent... and then says in verse 39 that this promise is for everyone who believes, but the ones who do are the ones that God is calling to Himself.

Again, what verse can you provide with establishes this premise - that God only calls His elect who always respond?

Again, I can show you where God calls and they reject Him, where He reaches out to them, but they disregard Him. I can validate my position showing God's calling goes out to the non-elect and that it can be rejected.

 

[Allan]

Continued...

My point is that there is always 2 viewpoints of God's 1 will in Scripture. Mans viewpoint and God's. We dont see God's so it is easy to leave God out, although it is the primary cause of man's every decision.

God gives us scripture so we can see both sides, and see just how each side functions in relation to the issue discussed in the scriptures. This particular argument doesn't really hold much water since scripture shows us both sides.

Romans 1 In my view is speaking to all men ever since creation being without excuse with or without the Law, God has made Himself known and this is the general revelation. This lines up perfectly with everyones state (depraved) before they believed the Gospel. See Ephesians 2 and Titus 3.

Ok, but Rom 1 also states God revealed himself to them, and they (depraved) understood. To make this 'understanding' something surface or that they did not actaully comprend distroys the intent of - being without excuse. These are spiritual things these spiritually dead people knew and understood and that is why they were/are without excuse.

Hbr 3:7 ¶ Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
Hbr 3:8 “do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,:
Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hbr 3:16 ¶ For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Hbr 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

In my view it is possible for the words of the Holy Spirit to be do not harden your heart.

Uhh...What do you 'mean it's possible'?
What does the passage acatully state:
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,“Today, if you hear his voice, “do not harden your hearts...
It is not a possibility but a stated fact.

Thus we must obey God and not harden our hearts and yet it is Him willing and working within us

That passage only means to desire something that God desires, but does not mean they must do it. In fact it illistrates just the opposite because it is dealing with christians specifically and we fall short and fail daily and will never achieve that perfection God desires. However we still seek out and reach toward those things as believers. This is the changed nature which has been given in the regeneration, and this happens after faith.

If we turn away from the faith then we are not saved and it is our responisibility while at the very same time when we are 100% working it is not us who endures to the end, but rather God preserving His sheep to the end. Do you see my connection here?

No. You are mixing the distinction between preserved (a one time act by God in Christ) and persevering (continuing in the faith till we die)

Your looking at the call from the perspective .. as if it denies that God is working in some and not others, when I think other areas of Scripture show that it is God working in some through the call to believe.

Yes, and I have proven time and again scripture showing and stating that God is indeed working in all men the same, calling them and revealing to them the same things in the same way. Please show me one scripture which states God only calls and works upon the elect 'alone'.

You said, "I think it can only become tricky if it doesn't fit our personal views."
This is very very true, and when we do change it is relieving. So I was going to ask you to change- just kidding... It is also true to say that just because we force our views on certain passages does not mean our views are wrong, but our application of that particular passage.

That still makes it wrong.

I am in a constant battle with this. Although I do disagree with your view of John 5:25 because if all of the dead hear, then they all have to live. And not all of them live as we know.

See, here again you are placing presumption into the text. The text does not state nor does it insinuate that all who hear live.

You said,"You seem to think something given to all in the same way can not effectually work on those whom God desires and have chosen. God has done all He has chosen to do, through bringing forth His word to world, His Son and He death for world, the Holy Spirit and His upon the world. Mans believing isn't left up to chance but God's work is specifically designed to bringing in all His chosen through faith."

Im not following here, can you expound a little more?

IOW - Could God have made His calling designed in such a way that it goes out to all people the same but working effectaully bring to Himself those He had chosen which were to be of faith.

You are moving from regeneration to another subject - the Call.

Regeneration -1. what is it, 2. what does it entail, and 3. how does it transpire?
1. It is the New man or new nature / that which has be 're-newed'
2. It entails Justification, sanctification, and being In Christ (made alive) - thus righteous.

3. Scriptures all of things transpire/are applied 'by faith', including the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Thus regeneration can not biblically be supported to precede faith.

 

[zrs6v4]

Now how in the world can you come to this conclusion in anything I have writen?

My point was it doesnt seem that God can ultimately lead whomever He wants to Himself. It sounds like you are saying that God goes so far with everyone, then its up to them to believe. I could be wrong.

Please show me where in the text it makes this distinction?
You are bring a lot of presupposition to the text and trying to force a view into it which the text does not apparently speak to.

Truly Truly I say to you an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

1- Jesus is stating that the time has come, now.
2- The dead here are spiritually dead.
3- Some have ears to here and some dont. Mathew 13
4- those who have ears (spiritual) will hear. "he who has ears to hear, let him hear."
5- Those who have spiritual ears and hear, will have eternal life and live.
6- I can switch up the words, "those who dont hear will not live." therefore not all people hear the spiritual message of Jesus.

I 'can' show that the spiritually dead mean ALL mankind becuase Jesus uses parallel wording in vs 25 with vs 28 regarding the resurrection of ALL the dead hearing His voice and rising up for the Judgment.

verse 28 switches over from the "now" to the "future". He is going from spiritual life to the resurrection of judgment. It is true that in the end all will be at the judgment whether saved or not. This is not a parrallel with verse 25 because He states that all who hear will live in 25 and if everyone heard then everyone will live which isnt the case in verse 28.

However to 'assume' all the Father gives Him equals or equates to them being the only ones drawn is again, a forcing of ones view upon the text.

ok, but how can this wrong-
1. All that the Father gives to the Son, come to the Son. And all those who come to the Son are saved.
2. Nobody comes to the Son unless drawn by the Father implying that the Father draws people to the Son.
3. draws and gives are both actions of the Father bringing people to the Son.
4. None who the Father bring to the Son are cast away.

So these people coming to the Son are chosen/elect. They are the ones that the Father has set aside from eternity past to give to the Son to die for. These are the ones the Son is going to die for. I know we disagree

1. Not all those who are called by God will come (Prov 1:24; Rom 10:21 parallels this same statement, The parable of the Marriage feast - many are called but few are chosen, and many others). Thus the statement 'all who are called come" can not be biblically supported.

Proverbs 1:24: God's voice goes out to everyone and He has His arms open wide, but nobody listens. So yes in a sense God longs for everyone and calls them, but unless they are drawn nobody comes because we are fools left alone. But the one who chooses to come has wisdom. The one who responds to God's call has been drawn. Yes this is much more than I would teach on this text, but I am showing you how I see harmony.

Yes Romans 10:21 is the same and is priceless. "All day long God stretches His hand out to disobedient and obstinate people (fools) which in Chapter 3 Paul shows is everyone. Nobody seeks God, Nobody cares to respond to His call (not effectual). We are are lost without God drawing us.

Mathew 22: God's voice goes out to everyone, we dont just tell the Gospel to the elect (of course this is God's secret), but everyone is extended the invite. Therefore many are called (not effectual) but few are chosen. This chosen is right in line with God's drawing and giving to the Son.

Your right that nobody is rejected the chance to respond to the Gospel, yet at the same time we are disobedient and obstinate people. In my view, as you know, if God left His call there then nobody would come. This is why it is ok for Him to elect a few, because we have all sinned and rejected God. Yes, on our own I believe we would refuse every day.

2. The prophesy dealing with God teaching is not exclusive to some but actually Inclusive of all.

Here is the issue I see, here again I will lay out my premises
- Everyone who heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
- while those who come to Me I never cast out.

So everyone who hears, drawn, given by the Father are going to be saved and secured. Now according to John 6:45 you are wrong in your view b/c of the way John is speaking, IMO. You are saying everyone who has heard and learned from the Father doesnt come to Jesus when the verse says they do.

Those taught by God (we see this in John 16:8, Rom 1) must choose to learn from Him. That is the intent of the Greek verb for the word "learn" is refering to. It is an active verb meaning the subject is the one doing said action and not passive whereby the subject is the recipent of said action. IOW - God is teaching and they are choosing to learn it.This is why 'to learn' and 'to believe' are synonomous. It is a willing action done by the subject. We do not necessarily differ on this but on 'why' scripture states they will or will not 'learn'.

- Now I agree that God gives to everyone a gift of conscience and a certain extent of knowledge. I do think in regards to John 6 it is speaking of these people learning the Gospel because they are coming to Christ, where in Romans 1 it is a condemnation sentance. Now, we agree that we must seek God and we must choose Him, learn, and believe. Yes, we do disagree on the "why." I simply say without God nobody chooses to learn or believe, although we can.

What is distinctly different is our view of regeneration and thus the purpose of this thread. To see what it entails and see if it matches to when and how scripture says it happens. So far, none of them match as happening before faith.

I will remind that I am not set on regeneration preceding faith, as I think it is a minor aspect of the Doctrines of Grace.

Again, this is supposition. You acknowledge that God can, (and I have shown that he does) but yet you deny He does so with any real intent.
Do you presume the gospel offer of salvation is NOT intended to all men but only the elect?

The Gospel is offered to as many as can possibly hear. So yes the offer is universal. But I do not think God draws all men, elects all men, and effectually calls all men. Some He chooses to leave the call to them, in and of themselves, and others who would equally reject in and of themselves He teaches, draws, and gives them to the Son and they will be saved.

Calling and choosing are NOT synonomous with regenetion nor are they even parallels of it. Thus it is a conclusion jumped to in which you presume a person must be first born again, regardless of what being born again scripturally entails.

Sorry if I was unclear, I didnt mean they were or say they were. I do think that all who the Father calls effectually (Romans 8:28-30) will be justified etc... Those who He calls are the chosen. Whether His work makes regeneration the deciding factor (which you make good points in this area) or something else is undecided on my part.

Can you please show me one verse of scripture in either OT or NT where the Holy Spirit indwell a non-beleiver?

Sorry if I was unclear, but I have never had an idea even close to this nor does any reformed believer. I would agree that no unbeliever is sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit until they believe in Christ. My point was that there is not a single person who ever lived that didnt reject God. Now some didnt reject the Gospel the first time they heard it. I personally blindly rejected the Gospel for 11 years of my life thinking I was a believer (I decieved myself). In line with my view, the point where we accept the Gospel is the point that God chose to open our hearts to understand the message, and our heart response was faith and repentance. In my case I was crushed.

 

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Continue'd....

Do you have any scripture to support this hypothosis?
See, this is continually the problem with 'logical' argument. There in nothing that can be biblically given to support the assumed logical conclusion. Thus for you it will always be "I think" and never scripture states.. with respect regeneration preceding faith. Now when you speak about what regeneration does we will both agree, but with respect to when it transpires scripture bears out my position consistantly.

Yea, there is some bad logic I have no doubt, but good logic is a complete rounded view of theology as it works together, not leaving passages out or ignored. My view cannot be given with one verse, but as a whole with a compilation of verses I can show you. I see big similarities in how God preserves us from hor He called us to begin with. When we are doing good things according to His will it is always Him willing and working in us for His purpose.

Again, what verse can you provide with establishes this premise - that God only calls His elect who always respond?

God only effectually calls His elect. But Gods arms and hands are out to everyone who would come. So He calls everyone but only effectually calls the ones He chooses to save for His glory. Those He chose have nothing better about them than those He doesnt. I do not want to sound one sided, because again there are hundreds of passages that speak to and plead with people to choose life without speaking of God working in them.

Why do you think Peter said this in Verse 39 to those who He called to repentance- "as many as the Lord God will call to Himself"
Doesnt this imply like Mathew 22 that Peter is offering the gift to everyone, yet only a few come? And those who come are the chosen? many are called, but few are chosen or in this verse few are called effectually by God.

Again, I can show you where God calls and they reject Him, where He reaches out to them, but they disregard Him. I can validate my position showing God's calling goes out to the non-elect and that it can be rejected.

I dont disregard them, but state that those verses arent speaking of God effectually calling people. God does want and send messengers to billions, yet He only chooses a few of them and those who He chooses He Roman 8:30's them.