Regeneration: Is it a prelude to OR the Act of Salvation ~Born Again~

[Winman]

I would like you just expound a little on these passages without throwing a bunch of other passages in. Please do not assume I am using them to argue I simply would just like to see how you interpret them. but before that, why does Paul thank God for the faith of the people he is writing to if God had nothing to do with their believing?

Romans 8:30 "And these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

Jude 1:1 "... To those who are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ"

1 Thessalonians 1:5, "for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction."

Romans 11:29 "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable"

I will attempt to answer these verses you asked about. First, Rom 8:30. I notice you excluded verse 29, let's look at that.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Before predestination comes foreknowledge. So there is something God foreknew that caused him to predestinate these persons. I personally believe that God knew who would believe on Jesus, and I have shown many verses to support this as you know, so I won't repeat them (but I can if you feel it is necessary).

Second, what does it say we are predestined for? To be saved? No. It says to be conformed to the image of his Son. And no non-Cal would disagree that we are called. Coming to God wasn't our invention, it was 100% of God and his will. But Jesus called many who are not chosen or elect.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

I have seen you say several times that if God calls or draws a man that they must be saved. You are in error here, Jesus said many are called, but few chosen. Just because Jesus calls you does not mean you will come. But those who do come were called. This seems to be difficult for you to grasp.

I will answer the other verses later.

 

[zrs6v4]

No, in my experience every Calvinist has said an unregenerate person has a free will.

Yes to some degree we all believe a person has a will of his own. Yet the definition varies from Palagian, to semi-Palagian, to Arminian, to Augustinian.

But then in the very next breath they say the person is utterly enslaved to their will and will always choose against God.

Yes, this is the key to nature. We only choose within our own nature which is sinful.

Now, that is just silly. You can't be utterly enslaved to a will that will always choose for evil and say you have a free will at the same time. And I don't see how any reasonable thinking person could accept an explanation like that.

We are not free from sin to choose as we wish, but we are slaves to sin and we are sold to the kingdom of Satan until Christ sets us free. So we are free and the choice is there, yet at the very time we are not free because we are trapped in our own body of deceit. When Christ sets someone free from his own corruption then and only then can he actually be willing to choose the light and hate darkness.

 

[zrs6v4]

I will attempt to answer these verses you asked about. First, Rom 8:30. I notice you excluded verse 29, let's look at that.

Thanks for responding.

Does God do these works to everyone?
Foreknew- No
Predestine- No
Call- No (in the sense that it is used here {Effectually})
justify- No
glorify- No

Why even put the the fact that God called in there? I think it is because it is a special work that is done for His sovereign purpose just like the other works that are listed in that verse. Hopefully this will play out in the following statements I make.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. I have seen you say several times that if God calls or draws a man that they must be saved. You are in error here, Jesus said many are called, but few chosen. Just because Jesus calls you does not mean you will come. But those who do come were called. This seems to be difficult for you to grasp.

I realize this is pointless and we both are coming into it with preconceived notions but it is good for both of us to really respect and consider each others opinions rather than making pointless negative comments.

This verse (Matt 22) is talking about the universal call to repentance like when Peter was preaching in Acts 2:38 " Repent, each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

"Many are called but few are chosen."

So the issue is that Peter is calling everyone to repentance (God speaking through Peter). Yet not all who are called are chosen and thus not all who are called will respond because they are not chosen.

But those who are chosen are spoken of in verse 39

"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Notice that the promise is ready for the universal offer to all. Then in the very next breath Peter says, "as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." This implies that when preachers are calling people to repentance that God is choosing and those He is choosing He calls (Like Romans 8:30) and those who He calls/chooses come every time. I know this because Peter is literally saying that as many as the Lord God calls will come. Why? because God calls effectually to those who are chosen and predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

 

[Winman]

Thanks for responding.

You are welcome.

Does God do these works to everyone?
Foreknew- No

I disagree, the scriptures say Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe not. (John 6:64). If Jesus knows who will not believe, he cannot help but know who will believe.

Predestine- No

I disagree. He predestines who he foreknows will believe.

Call- No (in the sense that it is used here {Effectually})

Why do you say effectually call? Show me that in the scriptures. Jesus said many are called, but few are chosen or elect. And who were the elect in the wedding parable? Those who obeyed and came. So election is conditioned upon those that obey the call.

justify- No
glorify- No

Well, he is not going to justify or glorify an unbeliever.

Why even put the the fact that God called in there? I think it is because it is a special work that is done for His sovereign purpose just like the other works that are listed in that verse. Hopefully this will play out in the following statements I make.

Your question made me laugh. You ask why do I put "the fact" that God called in there? The answer is, because it is a fact God wants us to know. There are many scriptures to show that God called many men who refused to obey.

Saying a call is "effectual" is circular reasoning. It is no different than the evolutionists who speak of "the survival of the fittest". Of course, whoever lives is deemed the fittest. But is that really true? Did only the fittest survive the earthquake in Haiti? Or did many young healthy people get killed? So, you do not see this deceptive form of thinking. Anybody who comes you say got the "effectual call". Those who didn't you say didn't get the same call. That is a fallacy in logic.

I realize this is pointless and we both are coming into it with preconceived notions but it is good for both of us to really respect and consider each others opinions rather than making pointless negative comments.

No, Jesus said many are called but few are chosen. I am not presupposing anything.

This verse (Matt 22) is talking about the universal call to repentance like when Peter was preaching in Acts 2:38 " Repent, each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

"Many are called but few are chosen."

So the issue is that Peter is calling everyone to repentance (God speaking through Peter). Yet not all who are called are chosen and thus not all who are called will respond because they are not chosen.

But those who are chosen are spoken of in verse 39

"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Notice that the promise is ready for the universal offer to all. Then in the very next breath Peter says, "as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." This implies that when preachers are calling people to repentance that God is choosing and those He is choosing He calls (Like Romans 8:30) and those who He calls/chooses come every time. I know this because Peter is literally saying that as many as the Lord God calls will come. Why? because God calls effectually to those who are chosen and predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

You still can't seem to grasp it. Let's say I go out in my yard and call my eight children to come home as it's dinner time. Only six obey.

Were the six who obeyed called? Yes.

Were the two who refused to obey called? Yes.

The promise is to those who are called, but only those who respond in obedience receive the promise. My six kids who obey will get supper, those who don't won't.

 

[Winman]

So the issue is that Peter is calling everyone to repentance (God speaking through Peter). Yet not all who are called are chosen and thus not all who are called will respond because they are not chosen.

No, this is where you get it backwards every time. Go back and read the parable of the wedding in Matthew 22.

Who are the elect? Those who obeyed and came when the king called them. Those who disobeyed were destroyed for the very reason that they disobeyed.

Matt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

What did the king hear? He heard that those invited (chosen) refused to come, made excuses, and entreated his servants spitefully and slew them.

So, he destroyed them. God did not destroy them for his pleasure, he destroyed them because they were disobedient murderers.

But those who obeyed and came were the chosen or elect. So the scriptures show that being elect is conditioned upon obeying God by trusting in his Son Jesus. And because God foreknows who will believe, he can predestine that they will be conformed to the image of his Son. He calls all men, but only a few obey and are therefore chosen or elect.

Go by what the scriptures show, not by what men teach.