Regeneration vs Conversion

[tyndale1946]

Regeneration is not conversion, neither is conversion regeneration... One is eternal and one is now... Regeneration is also called the New Birth or born again... And most when they read the encounter that Nicodemus had with Jesus, they think Jesus was telling the Master Of Israel that he needed to be born again... Jesus Our Lord was not telling Nicodemus, he needed to born again as Nicodemus misunderstood the process but he was telling him how it was done, using the wind as an illustration... Nicodemus was already regenerated, he needed to be converted... Examples of regeneration:

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Examples of conversion:

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Brother Glen

 

[kyredneck]

Regeneration is not conversion, neither is conversion regeneration...

Well, my brother PB, I used to believe that way, but no longer. I now believe regenerated, saved, converted, all mean pretty much the same. But only His [born from above] sheep are able to 'hear' and be regenerated, saved, or converted by the gospel.

In short, I believe the word 'regeneration' has been misapplied to mean 'born of God', when it does not.

[add]

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, other than Eph 2:5 which I believe is corporate and refers to 'the regeneration' and the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37:3-5.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord Jehovah, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah.
5 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live. Ezek 37

5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2

 

[JonC]

Regeneration is not conversion, neither is conversion regeneration... One is eternal and one is now... Regeneration is also called the New Birth or born again... And most when they read the encounter that Nicodemus had with Jesus, they think Jesus was telling the Master Of Israel that he needed to be born again... Jesus Our Lord was not telling Nicodemus, he needed to born again as Nicodemus misunderstood the process but he was telling him how it was done, using the wind as an illustration... Nicodemus was already regenerated, he needed to be converted... Examples of regeneration:

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Examples of conversion:

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Brother Glen

When you say "eternal" (without beginning or end) do you mean "everlasting" (without end)?

I'm trying to follow the verses you posted but it seems that "converted" would be everlasting.

 

[37818]

. . . of conversion:

Jesus' teaching is found in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Matthew 18:3, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:15, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luke 18:17, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus' teaching is found in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Matthew 18:3, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:15, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luke 18:17, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

What's your point? (it seems you get that question a lot). Are you trying to refute @tyndale1946's post, or agreeing with it?

 

[tyndale1946]

Well, my brother PB, I used to believe that way, but no longer. I now believe regenerated, saved, converted, all mean pretty much the same. But only His [born from above] sheep are able to 'hear' and be regenerated, saved, or converted by the gospel.

In short, I believe the word 'regeneration' has been misapplied to mean 'born of God', when it does not.

[add]

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, other than Eph 2:5 which I believe is corporate and refers to 'the regeneration' and the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37:3-5.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord Jehovah, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah.
5 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live. Ezek 37

5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2

Well my esteemed PB Brother I won't say you are wrong and I have been known to change my mind in search of the truth... I've looked up both words and regeneration is born again and conversion is to turn... I guess when one is quickened (born again) by the grace of God alone they are also turned, one cannot show agape love if their not, because the source of love is God, it doesn't come any other way and by the love of God through the Faith of Jesus Christ alone, you are saved eternally... Brother Glen

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[37818]

What's your point? (it seems you get that question a lot). Are you trying to refute @tyndale1946's post, or agreeing with it?

You tell me.
The New birth is taught to be required in Matthew 18:3, Mark 10:15, Luke 18:17 before John wrote what Jesus explained it to Nicodemus.

 

[kyredneck]

You tell me.
The New birth is taught to be required in Matthew 18:3, Mark 10:15, Luke 18:17 before John wrote what Jesus explained it to Nicodemus.

No, you tell me. Where is there any mention of a 'birth' in any of these passages?

Matthew 18:3, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:15, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luke 18:17, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

 

[percho]

No, you tell me. Where is there any mention of a 'birth' in any of these passages?

Matthew 18:3, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:15, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luke 18:17, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Does not, "as a child," imply to start again and or from a different origin?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, you tell me. Where is there any mention of a 'birth' in any of these passages?

Matthew 18:3, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:15, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luke 18:17, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Hmmm, then do you believe in two salvations!? By that I mean: Elder James Allen – Two Salvations – Little Union Primitive Baptist Church

 

[kyredneck]

Hmmm, then do you believe in two salvations!? By that I mean: Elder James Allen – Two Salvations – Little Union Primitive Baptist Church

You tell me, you claim Primitive Baptist to be your denomination of choice; do you believe it?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You tell me, you claim Primitive Baptist to be your denomination of choice; do you believe it?

Sincerely yes I do.

 

[kyredneck]

Sincerely yes I do.

As do I. Such an elegant solution to the Gordian Knot.

God's Sovereignty and Human Responsibility | Monergism

 

[JonC]

Reading the OP, I'm not sure that I can agree.

It seems, if I understand the OP correctly, that it is making an assumption not found in Scripture (that Nicodemus was regenerated), but more importantly it seems to seek a chronological order where Scripture doesn't.

Has it been considered on this thread that regeneration, conversion, salvation, and "made alive in the Spirit" and the like are talking about different aspects of the same thing?


I ask because it seems that were we talking about a crystal we would be arguing whether it being translucent or it being shiney came first.

 

[kyredneck]

Does not, "as a child," imply to start again and or from a different origin?

We're talking birth here, not an attitude. Does a child make a decision to be born? Did you decide it was time for you to be born into this world?

No. You've no more say so about your heavenly birth than you did your earthly birth.

 

[Dave G]

Regeneration is not conversion, neither is conversion regeneration... One is eternal and one is now

I see many these days that teach that they are the same thing, so they often use the terms interchangeably.
I used to do that all the time.

But more and more I tend not to ( but still find myself lapsing back into it even after many years of having my thinking changed by God's word ), as they can be different, depending upon the context of the passage where the terms "regeneration / regenerated", "converted", "quickened" and "born again" are used.
In other words, it's complicated... but it can be discerned with much study.

For example:

1) " And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:
32 but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." ( Luke 22:31-32 ).

I see this "conversion" happening at Pentecost, when the Holy Ghost first comes upon the believers at Jerusalem. Peter is then "converted", or has the power of God come upon him, for the purpose of God doing good works through Peter among his brethren in the church at Jerusalem.



2) " And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." ( Matthew 19:28 ).

To me, this is speaking of the time between the first and second resurrections...
The 1,000 year period when the Lord Jesus sits on His earthly father David's throne, and shall rule and reign from Jerusalem with His saints.

The "regeneration" spoken of here is after the saints have experienced the first resurrection at His coming, and the 12 apostles are sitting upon 12 thrones, judging the tribes of Israel.

 

[Dave G]

Other than those two passages, I can find no mention of the words " regeneration / regenerated" or "conversion / converted" anywhere in the rest of God's word;
If I've missed anything, please feel free to point it out to me so I can add it to my list and check out the context.

Strictly speaking, I see it as a set of terms that have historically been used interchangeably ( and "theologically" ) down through the centuries to describe the Lord's miraculous process by which He changes a man's or woman's wicked heart, into that which pleases Him...

As part of the process of conforming a person into the image of their Saviour as we are told in many places, such as Romans 8:29-30.



Hope that helps to explain how I see them.
May God bless you all.

 

[Dave G]

Does not, "as a child," imply to start again and or from a different origin?

I believe it can imply it, but in the passages he listed, notice that they say, "as a child" or "as this little child" / " as little children"...

Which to me is saying that a person who comes to the Lord has a heart attitude that is one of humility, learning, acceptance of correction and total dependence upon the words of their Father in Heaven, and His love of them and protection of them.

In other words, a believer approaches the Lord ( in prayer and in their hearts ) as one that is "blind", "deaf", "dumb", "lame" and "helpless"... in total reliance upon God's promises to help them in time of need, and to deliver them from all their afflictions in this life.

 

[percho]

I wonder if the context of, "born," in John 3 carries with it, as an adult or as a child, entering and or seeing the kingdom of God?

Matt 18:3 YLT and said, 'Verily I say to you, if ye may not be turned [again] and become as the children, ye may not enter into the reign of the heavens;

John 3 born G 1080 From a variation of γένος G 1085 from G 1096
Become Matt 18:3 G 1096